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Transit Issues

irfner

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Nov 24, 2007
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It looks like Spokane Transit is planning on standing tough. This my last correspondence from Susan Millbank. It was sent to me after she received a copy of the training bulletin. It looks like only a law suite or some serious incident will open their eyes.



Mike,

Again, Spokane Transit's Rules of Conduct prohibit:

[size=“Carrying, exhibiting, displaying, or drawing any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons, unless otherwise authorized by law; (RCW 9.41.270)”]

All I can tell you is that bus operators are not law enforcement officials, but STA maintains close relationships with our local law enforcement officials. With any issue, Spokane Transit deals with situations based on the specific circumstances and within the limits of the law.


Susan

Perhaps someone else can explain RCW 9.41.290 to her (them).
 

kparker

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Bear,

Your Metro story is hilarious! Although (as you point out) like so many others who get confrontational with legal OC/CC'ers, the driver didn't behave remotely like someone who actually felt threatened by the armed person, but rather only offended by them. About the only exception I can recall is the story here recently about the very nervous Costo manager.
 

trevorthebusdriver

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Kent, Washington, USA
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Had a nice conversation with my boss at KC Metro today. He said OC is fine.

Someone is doing a pretty good job getting the word to transit agencies as my bossmentioned Lonnie's name before Icould.

They still need to train the drivers, though. We need at least an Operations Bulliten(which a lot of drivers don't read) , even better would be a paragraph in "The Book" because then it's set in stone...
 

surfj9009

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As soon as Spokane PD releases the long awaited training bulletin, then i am sure she will have a different attitude about it.
 

xiphoris

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I also corresponded with Susan about this and she said something similar. On my first request she cited the RCW, and upon clarification she directed me to Spokane Transit's rules of conduct.

In both emails she emphasized that "every situation is handled based on its own circumstances". I asked a fairly direct question:

Are there any *extra* regulations imposed by Spokane Transit on handguns, beyond the law? Is it correct that to say that when a citizen legally carries a handgun onto Spokane Transit, he is not in violation of any Spokane Transit regulations?
At least I thought that was fairly direct. She unfortunately deliberately avoided saying anything about the issue. I had hoped she could weigh in and say that lawfully carried handguns are permitted on Spokane Transit; nope.

FWIW, here are the Spokane Transit Rules of Conduct: http://spokanetransit.com/aboutsta/documents/Rules%20of%20Conduct%20April%202007.pdf

6. Carrying any flammable liquid, explosive, acid, or other article or material likely to cause harm to others except that nothing herein shall prevent a person from carrying a cigarette, cigar, or pipe lighter or carrying a firearm or ammunition in a way that is not otherwise prohibited by law; (RCW 9.91.025/SMC 10.10.100)
Phrased more concisely, "Nothing herein shall prevent a person from carrying a firearm not prohibited by law". The Rules of Conduct say this very explicitly (only in legalese), so we citizens should have pretty strong "ammunition" in the case of a dispute, so to speak.

The rules (#11) also include RCW 9.41.270.

As long as it is carried in a way that does not "warrant alarm", and is otherwise lawful, we should be OK to carry on Spokane Transit.
 

Bear 45/70

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xiphoris wrote:
As long as it is carried in a way that does not "warrant alarm", and is otherwise lawful, we should be OK to carry on Spokane Transit.

I wish everyone would quit waving this "warrants alarm" around out of context. Warrants alarm is incorrect and you must use it in context with the rest of the law.

The correct usage is

"in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons."

A holstered weapon does not qualify. You have to do more than just carry a weapon. So drop the warrants alarm stuff. Even the courts don't just look at the two words alone.
 

irfner

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434
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SeaTac, Washington, USA
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xiphoris wrote:
I also corresponded with Susan about this and she said something similar. On my first request she cited the RCW, and upon clarification she directed me to Spokane Transit's rules of conduct.

In both emails she emphasized that "every situation is handled based on its own circumstances". I asked a fairly direct question:

Are there any *extra* regulations imposed by Spokane Transit on handguns, beyond the law? Is it correct that to say that when a citizen legally carries a handgun onto Spokane Transit, he is not in violation of any Spokane Transit regulations?
At least I thought that was fairly direct. She unfortunately deliberately avoided saying anything about the issue. I had hoped she could weigh in and say that lawfully carried handguns are permitted on Spokane Transit; nope.

FWIW, here are the Spokane Transit Rules of Conduct: http://spokanetransit.com/aboutsta/documents/Rules%20of%20Conduct%20April%202007.pdf

6. Carrying any flammable liquid, explosive, acid, or other article or material likely to cause harm to others except that nothing herein shall prevent a person from carrying a cigarette, cigar, or pipe lighter or carrying a firearm or ammunition in a way that is not otherwise prohibited by law; (RCW 9.91.025/SMC 10.10.100)
Phrased more concisely, "Nothing herein shall prevent a person from carrying a firearm not prohibited by law". The Rules of Conduct say this very explicitly (only in legalese), so we citizens should have pretty strong "ammunition" in the case of a dispute, so to speak.

The rules (#11) also include RCW 9.41.270.

As long as it is carried in a way that does not "warrant alarm", and is otherwise lawful, we should be OK to carry on Spokane Transit.

Thanks Xiphoris

I just would like for Susan to fess up and start training drivers and other employees that OC is legal. She has seen the training bulletins for Pete's sake. I prefer to resolve issues before they create problems. But in the end that is up to Susan and Spokane Transit. Either way will eventually work ok for me. I just need to remember to allow plenty of extra time for my bus ride in Spokane.
 

irfner

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Bear 45/70 wrote:
xiphoris wrote:
As long as it is carried in a way that does not "warrant alarm", and is otherwise lawful, we should be OK to carry on Spokane Transit.

I wish everyone would quit waving this "warrants alarm" around out of context. Warrants alarm is incorrect and you must use it in context with the rest of the law.

The correct usage is

"in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons."

A holstered weapon does not qualify. You have to do more than just carry a weapon. So drop the warrants alarm stuff. Even the courts don't just look at the two words alone.
Bear

If I just write "warrants alarm" would you take it as shorthand for "in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons."

Thanks
 

Bear 45/70

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irfner wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
xiphoris wrote:
As long as it is carried in a way that does not "warrant alarm", and is otherwise lawful, we should be OK to carry on Spokane Transit.

I wish everyone would quit waving this "warrants alarm" around out of context. Warrants alarm is incorrect and you must use it in context with the rest of the law.

The correct usage is

"in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons."

A holstered weapon does not qualify. You have to do more than just carry a weapon. So drop the warrants alarm stuff. Even the courts don't just look at the two words alone.
Bear

If I just write "warrants alarm" would you take it as shorthand for "in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons."

Thanks
You could get me to go for it but the problem is strangers and noobs will not know what it means and will take it for what it actually says. That's where the problem arises.
 

xiphoris

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"in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons."
I don't understand what you are disputing. I am pretty sure that's what everyone here understands "warrants alarm" to mean. Perhaps you would prefer if we wrote it "warrants alarm (...)"?

When we say "probable cause" or "reasonable suspicion", we are using legal terms that are defined by a body of case law and statues. The same is true for "warrants alarm" -- and we are invoking the full concept of it when using the term. I don't see what's wrong with that.

A holstered weapon does not qualify. You have to do more than just carry a weapon. So drop the warrants alarm stuff. Even the courts don't just look at the two words alone.
What you're saying is false. Nothing in the statute exempts you from being so charged merely because your weapon is holstered. If you intimidate other people, act aggressive, and touch your gun, you can be charged under this statue even if the weapon is holstered.

That's exactly why I used the phrase "warrants alarm" instead of saying "you can carry your weapon in your holster". To repeat what I said in my original post:

As long as it is carried in a way that does not "warrant alarm", and is otherwise lawful, we should be OK to carry on Spokane Transit.
I believe this is a precise and correct way of describing in what manner a person may carry on Spokane Transit. It also alludes, to a person who is familiar with case law, that the exact prohibited conduct is not known in advance -- and whether your carrying "warrants alarm" is decided by a court. Just like "probable cause" is decided by a court.

If you get onto the bus wearing a skii mask, having a holstered gun, I am sure you would be arrested because your manner of carrying "warrants alarm (...)".

In conclusion, I don't see what you're objecting to.
 

Bear 45/70

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xiphoris wrote:
"in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons."
I don't understand what you are disputing. I am pretty sure that's what everyone here understands "warrants alarm" to mean. Perhaps you would prefer if we wrote it "warrants alarm (...)"?

When we say "probable cause" or "reasonable suspicion", we are using legal terms that are defined by a body of case law and statues. The same is true for "warrants alarm" -- and we are invoking the full concept of it when using the term. I don't see what's wrong with that.

A holstered weapon does not qualify. You have to do more than just carry a weapon. So drop the warrants alarm stuff. Even the courts don't just look at the two words alone.
What you're saying is false. Nothing in the statute exempts you from being so charged merely because your weapon is holstered. If you intimidate other people, act aggressive, and touch your gun, you can be charged under this statue even if the weapon is holstered.

That's exactly why I used the phrase "warrants alarm" instead of saying "you can carry your weapon in your holster". To repeat what I said in my original post:

As long as it is carried in a way that does not "warrant alarm", and is otherwise lawful, we should be OK to carry on Spokane Transit.
I believe this is a precise and correct way of describing in what manner a person may carry on Spokane Transit. It also alludes, to a person who is familiar with case law, that the exact prohibited conduct is not known in advance -- and whether your carrying "warrants alarm" is decided by a court. Just like "probable cause" is decided by a court.

If you get onto the bus wearing a skii mask, having a holstered gun, I am sure you would be arrested because your manner of carrying "warrants alarm (...)".

In conclusion, I don't see what you're objecting to.
Your logic defies all logic.
 

just_a_car

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Bear 45/70 wrote:
You could get me to go for it but the problem is strangers and noobs will not know what it means and will take it for what it actually says. That's where the problem arises.
+1.

If you want, you can just say "warrants alarm for the safety of others", but saying warrants alarm on it's own is misleading and we're all about education of the truth on this site.
 

irfner

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SeaTac, Washington, USA
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just_a_car wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
You could get me to go for it but the problem is strangers and noobs will not know what it means and will take it for what it actually says. That's where the problem arises.
+1.

If you want, you can just say "warrants alarm for the safety of others", but saying warrants alarm on it's own is misleading and we're all about education of the truth on this site.

Warrants alarm for the safety of others. What about yourself? Could it warrant alarm for your own safety? I think "warrants alarm" pretty much says it. Additional clarification can be added if and when needed but most of the time I think "warrants alarm" covers it. Either an action warrants alarm or it does not. Does a gun in a holster warrant alarm? What if the gun is in a holster in your hand with the hammer pulled back and pointed at someone? Still in a holster but "warrants alarm" comes into play.

Whatsunusual about this issue is we can each exercise our own judgement and still be understood.
 

badger54

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Seattle, Washington, USA
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I noticed at the Skagit Transit station in MT Vernon that firearms are banned on their property and on the buses. Is SKAT transit county owned or private.
 

sv_libertarian

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badger54 wrote:
I noticed at the Skagit Transit station in MT Vernon that firearms are banned on their property and on the buses. Is SKAT transit county owned or private.
Public. Remind them of RCW 9.91.025
 

heresolong

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Happily I can find no reference to weapons in the Whatcom Transit Authority guide that they put out with all the routes and rules. Not that I ride the bus since I live in a small town on the edge of the county that hardly ever gets actual buses.
 

shad0wfax

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Spokane, Washington, USA
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The Spokane Transit Authority is now training drivers that open and concealed carryare rights and that firearms are permitted on STA buses in compliance with state law.

Their policy has always mirrored that of state law, but drivers are now specifically being trained that the carrying of firearms is acceptable in accordance with state laws.
 
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