Stop and ID

Patriot2A said:

I came into this thread expecting a quick clarification and didn't seem to get one. I live in a va, if a cop (with no ras or pc) asks for my id, am i required to verbally tell him my full name? and what's this "at night" ********?

I need to learn

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There is no fast answer. The problem is that the "answer" is cobbled together from the 4th Amendment right against unreasonable search and seizure, the 5th Amendment right against self-incrimination, statutes, and court opinions. And, in case that wasn't sufficiently complicated, VA localities may have ordinances affecting things.

With regard to "at night", forum member "User" is a defense attorney. A long while back he related that long ago, constables had the power to detain people and demand an explanation for the conduct at night. User made a precise statement; mine is probably a poor summary. So, don't use mine to compare with situations or scenarios.

A very, very important distinction. There is a difference between verbally identifying yourself and providing an identity document. In discussions on OCDO, it is best to distinguish when writing a post. For example, you might write "verbally identify myself" or "provide identity document."

But, there is a simple answer overall. First, I am not a lawyer; this is not legal advice. It is offered for your consideration. Should you adopt anything I write, you do so full knowing and accepting responsibility. Here is the simple answer: "Comply while politely, verbally refusing consent." This way you don't have to know the law on whether the cop has justification to suspect you of something, justification to detain you, justification to demand you identify yourself. Or, more importantly, you can't be cited for unknowingly being in a place and circumstances where the cop really does have authority to demand identity.

By refusing consent, you protect your interests to the degree they can be protected. See the first two links below for info supportive of that sentence.

Also, be refusing consent, if the cop then continues, its on him to be compliant with the law on identity. After the encounter, when you have time to research the law more, if it turns out the cop didn't have sufficient justification to demand identity (verbal or document), then he is open to counter attack from you--formal complaint or maybe lawsuit if it was part of a bigger wrongness on his part.

For more about identity demands from cops read the three court cases linked below. They will make more sense if you read them in the order linked. You are not going to find "an answer". As you read them you will have to integrate the information into a coherent picture. Fortunately, the court does that mostly.

There is one down side to providing identity even if the cop is not justified in demanding it. The police then know who you are. If they end the encounter, then talk to a prosecutor or whatever, and can find some way to charge you with something, they then know who you are and where you live. It has happened to an OCer. We only have one occurrence. So, its not common. But, its not impossible. The last court opinion even mentions the possibility.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA
also:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmrbNLt7Om8&feature=player_embedded


Court opinions on identity demands by cops:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0443_0047_ZO.html

http://supreme.justia.com/us/461/352/case.html

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-5554.ZO.html

Thanks guys.

Patriot2A,

Please remember that the information you have asked for and received is the OPINION of those who provided it. You need to do your OWN research to determine if YOU understand it the same way it was given to you. In all things DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH.

This is no way is intended to diminish the quality of the information that has been given. It is not to read as a chastisement of you or anyone else for asking.... JUST VERIFY WHAT YOU HAVE RECEIVED AS IT PERTAINS TO YOUR SPECIFIC SITUATIONS!

JoeSparky

Read the thread again, especially User and Citizen's responses.
They answer your question.

That's why I liked learning of Maines 17a,15a, as it states when you are absolutely required to identify your self. But... we're not in Maine

Probably the last thing you'd want to do is release your name either verbally or ID document as Citizen suggests, as now a possible matter of record, anyone who investigates your background may find some interesting things.

Reader's Digest version:

Had to return some video's this weekend at a kiosk, while waiting my turn I noticed a couple pull up in a car with MD tags, the driver steps out and his shirt reads Ocean City police and as they proceed into the store I notice the female pointing me out to the male (he was the driver).
After I returned my video's I go into the store and the male (OCPB) is eyeing me, after a few moments he steps up ID's himself (shows badge, MD LE) and he ask if I have a permit and would I mind showing it.

I ignore him, he repeats his request a few times (he worded it differently a few times), I continue to ignore and exited the store after paying for my items.
The couple was still in the store when I drove off as the female was still at the sandwich counter.


A non issue really, yes it's on VC.

Agent19 said:

Reader's Digest version:

Had to return some video's this weekend at a kiosk, while waiting my turn I noticed a couple pull up in a car with MD tags, the driver steps out and his shirt reads Ocean City police and as they proceed into the store I notice the female pointing me out to the male (he was the driver).
After I returned my video's I go into the store and the male (OCPB) is eyeing me, after a few moments he steps up ID's himself (shows badge, MD LE) and he ask if I have a permit and would I mind showing it.

I ignore him, he repeats his request a few times (he worded it differently a few times), I continue to ignore and exited the store after paying for my items.
The couple was still in the store when I drove off as the female was still at the sandwich counter.


A non issue really, yes it's on VC.

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You have more self control than I do M.
I'd have told him where to shove that Md badge.

Agent19 said:

Reader's Digest version.

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Hahahahahahahaaaa! Great non-response! I love it.

Now, the thing to do is write a formal complaint to Ocean City police demanding to know why the cop would flash a badge and ask for a permit. Of course, a genuine request is technically legal, as is a badge-flash, but that smacks of so much arrogance I personally couldn't pass it up.

"Hey, flatfoot! Keep your extremist anti-rights views on your side of the Potomac."

I think I would have loved saying something like "Can I get your name and badge number? Our Attorney General just LOVES to hear about out-of-state Law Enforcement trying to set up shop in Virginia..."



TFred

Agent19 said:

Reader's Digest version:

Had to return some video's this weekend at a kiosk, while waiting my turn I noticed a couple pull up in a car with MD tags, the driver steps out and his shirt reads Ocean City police and as they proceed into the store I notice the female pointing me out to the male (he was the driver).
After I returned my video's I go into the store and the male (OCPB) is eyeing me, after a few moments he steps up ID's himself (shows badge, MD LE) and he ask if I have a permit and would I mind showing it.

I ignore him, he repeats his request a few times (he worded it differently a few times), I continue to ignore and exited the store after paying for my items.
The couple was still in the store when I drove off as the female was still at the sandwich counter.


A non issue really, yes it's on VC.

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You know the amusing thing is that it seems to me (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that this response was entirely appropriate, even if the LEO was within his proper jurisdiction!

No?

TFred

Agent19 said:

The couple was still in the store...

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And probably thinking, "What in the world is wrong with these sheep in Virginia?"

:banghead:

TFred

peter nap said:

You have more self control than I do M.
I'd have told him where to shove that Md badge.

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I knew if I engaged in any conversation with him I would be playing his game.
Also, if things went down hill don't want my words used against me, they could be viewed as instigating.

Citizen said:

Now, the thing to do is write a formal complaint to Ocean City police demanding to know why the cop would flash a badge and ask for a permit. .

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It didn't go any further than a request.
He could legal request anything he wanted but he and I knew that was the extent of what he could do in that situation.

TFred said:

You know the amusing thing is that it seems to me (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that this response was entirely appropriate, even if the LEO was within his proper jurisdiction!

No?

TFred

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In MD (his juridiction) I would have been screwed, OC is illegal.

IANAL, however.
You are not required to speak to anyone , that includes LE.

Agent19 said:

I knew if I engaged in any conversation with him I would be playing his game.
Also, if things went down hill don't want my words used against me, they could be viewed as instigating.
.

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I kinda doubt that would be a problem.
I've never seen you at a loss for the right words.:lol:

Wasn't worried about knowing what to say, more like what I'd say.
They could be viewed as instigating.

TFred said:

You know the amusing thing is that it seems to me (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that this response was entirely appropriate, even if the LEO was within his proper jurisdiction!

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Agent19 said:

In MD (his juridiction) I would have been screwed, OC is illegal.

IANAL, however.
You are not required to speak to anyone , that includes LE.

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You know, I wrote that the exact opposite of what my brain was trying to say.

What I meant to say was, even if the guy had been a Virginia LEO, the response would have been perfectly appropriate... ugh.

TFred

P.S. You showed remarkable poise to respond as you did. I would have been tempted to silently locate a rack with maps of Virginia on it, and hand one to the guy...

Agent19 said:

Reader's Digest version:

Had to return some video's this weekend at a kiosk, while waiting my turn I noticed a couple pull up in a car with MD tags, the driver steps out and his shirt reads Ocean City police and as they proceed into the store I notice the female pointing me out to the male (he was the driver).
After I returned my video's I go into the store and the male (OCPB) is eyeing me, after a few moments he steps up ID's himself (shows badge, MD LE) and he ask if I have a permit and would I mind showing it.

I ignore him, he repeats his request a few times (he worded it differently a few times), I continue to ignore and exited the store after paying for my items.
The couple was still in the store when I drove off as the female was still at the sandwich counter.


A non issue really, yes it's on VC.

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Wow, I love hearing this and think you handled it really well. I don't think I could have resisted needling this arrogant jerk, at least saying somethink like "you know you are in Virginia, right?" If he answers in the affirmative, then I will be on my way.

Agent19 said:

SNIP He could legal request anything he wanted but he and I knew that was the extent of what he could do in that situation.

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Yes, I know. However, there are lots of things I could request of others that are legal, but would still be wrong.

The badge flash was very likely to obtain compliance/cooperation. Cops know lotsa people will comply with their requests. He sure didn't flash because of the federal law that lets him carry concealed in other states.

What about the next rookie OCer he pulls it on?

If its more trouble than you think its worth, I understand. I would have a hard time passing up the opportunity to put government back in its box, though.

There is alot of good advice and information in this thread. However, despite what has been suggested, I think it may not be a good idea to automatically show id everytime an officer says "I wanna see some id." I actually like the suggestion of responding with "Am I free to go?", "Am I being detained?", "Are you requiring me to show id?" rather than the suggested giving id and stating that you are doing so involuntarily and without consent.

Strategically, it seems better to avoid showing id if possible, if forced to do so then state you are doing so involuntarily and do not give consent to such. Once you give id, you name and other info is almost certainly going into a report, and they now can easily come find you later if they dream up some charges, as citizen suggested. I think I am unlikely to easily show id without asking some of the above, especially when moving about on foot during daytime. I would like to hear responses to the above.

Citizen said:

Yes, I know. However, there are lots of things I could request of others that are legal, but would still be wrong.

The badge flash was very likely to obtain compliance/cooperation. Cops know lotsa people will comply with their requests. He sure didn't flash because of the federal law that lets him carry concealed in other states.

What about the next rookie OCer he pulls it on?

If its more trouble than you think its worth, I understand. I would have a hard time passing up the opportunity to put government back in its box, though.

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And any such communication back to the boss in Maryland might just throw in a mention of how much Virginia disdains those Yankee boys trying to stick their noses into our gun business around here...

TFred

NovaCop10 said:

Oh Citizen, ...I can assure everyone on this board that LEOs don't try to prone innocent people out as light entertainment as something to do during a dull shift. You do realize that doing such thing without justification would be met with some serious consequences both civil, criminals, and from your department (termination)....

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One of the points I regularly make in the Deadly Force Seminar is that you can't rely on the cop you meet to be one way or another. Cops, like lawyers, dentists, plumbers, auto-body mechanics, priests, etc. follow the law of averages: some of them are really good; some of them are really bad; and most of them are average. The critical thing to remember about cops is that they work for the state, their primary interest is supposed to be protecting the interests of the state; they do not have a duty to protect the public, they are (except when the "sudden emergency doctrine" applies) supposed to be law-abiding (exactly as everyone else is) but are not required by law to be moral (exactly as everyone else). They are, as the Sup. Ct. of the U.S. says, "entitled to their arts, devices, and strategems." So it is best to expect the cop to behave professionally - and if he's doing that, remember that his job is to protect The State, not you, and that we pay cops to identify and incarcerate "bad guys". If the cop is doing his job, he's going to be looking at you as a potential "bad guy". Respect that, and deal with him appropriately. It is an adversarial relationship, and despite what they told you in elementary school, the policeman is not your friend. If you have some respect for the cops' professionalism, you will treat them with courtesy and respect, but tell them nothing.

If they have probable cause to arrest you, you have to assume that they are going to arrest you, no matter what you say. They don't have to, and it's possible they'll be persuaded by your protestations of innocence. They have "prosecutorial discretion" and don't have to charge a person with a crime if they don't see the need. However, if you open your big mouth and start blabbing, you will certainly give them probable cause to arrest you. Still, they might not, and don't have to, but then again they might.