Be prepared to deal with LE at some time or another (even at Belmar)

[RandallFlagg]

This was at the Bel Mar Park at Alameda and Wadsworth? Right by the Lakewood Police Station?
If so, you and I need to meet up there someday.
OPEN CARRYING, of course.

 

[RandallFlagg]

This is even more egregious than the Longmont incident

Oh, I've GOT to hear about this. Please do tell?

 

[JamesCanby]

Thanks... I get it.

Many thanks to those who have helped me to understand this topic, and even though I am hoping that I never have to use what I've learned, at least I am better prepared and have more confidence in that potential interaction. OCDO is a great resource.

 

[mahkagari]

So, in Washington, the answer would be, "Officer, you write me a citation for the law you think I am breaking and I will show you my ID. Otherwise, have a nice day."

I like that.

Look at it this way... You are eating lunch in McDonald's with your kids. Cops approach you, tell you to provide them identification and some type of identification for your children. Maybe ask you to call someone who can verify that the children are yours. Is that OK? Why don't they have the authority to do that to everyone who has kids with them in McDonald's? After all, kidnapping is a felony and how do the police know that you aren't a kidnapper?

This is a reason among others I don't go to Chuck E. Cheese. Or as my youngest calls it and I am loathe to discourage her, Yucky Cheese.

A few years ago, we went there when visiting my mother and they apparently stamp all the kids and parents with matching numbers. I was separated from DW and kids when we went in. When we left, DW sent me to load the oldest in the car while she gathered stuff up. A woman stopped me and said something along the lines of "You can't leave with her." There was some exchange explaining the numbers and me saying I hadn't gotten one. She was getting more agressive and said something further about not letting me leave with what was visibly my daughter. I was about to ask her how exactly she intended to stop me when DW arrived with the younger and flashed her number and we left. I would have loved for her to get physical on behalf of her employer or call the police to enforce their magic rubber stamp policy on me. Or rather the empty parking space.

I could appreciate the spirit of the policy, but this woman's attitude was much more about enforcing it for the sake of enforcing it rather than protecting my child.

 

[mahkagari]

Oh, I've GOT to hear about this. Please do tell?

Longmont or Loveland?

SOW, Lokster, check with Billy for his lawyer's info if you do decide that drawing a weapon on you for walking your dog is worth pursuing legal action to retrain the officers.

 

[M-Taliesin]

Longmont or Loveland?

SOW, Lokster, check with Billy for his lawyer's info if you do decide that drawing a weapon on you for walking your dog is worth pursuing legal action to retrain the officers.

Howdy Amigo!
You forgot to mention that Billy also got 15k award from the city for their detention and taking his firearm from him for the duration of their "investigatory stop". Somebody figured out the math, and it ended up costing the city $500 per minute that they detained Billy. And all he was doing was sitting on a park bench eating an apple while enjoying the sunset while armed. God forbid he might try shooting down the sun!

They paid up, getting off easy, with a small cash settlement and a promise to improve officer training. Point being, it had a positive impact arising from a purely negative confrontation.

Oh, and I thought it was Longmont, but on further reflection it evidently was Loveland. I always confuse them two! LOL!

Blessings,
M-Taliesin

 

[M-Taliesin]

Oh, I've GOT to hear about this. Please do tell?

Howdy Pard!
The story is right here amigo! Settled out of court for 15k and a promise to improve officer training.

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...face-lawsuit-for-detaining-legal-open-carrier

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...d-CO-pays-15-000-to-settle-open-carry-lawsuit

Wanna bet they don't want another lawsuit situation like this?
Wanna bet they didn't enjoy the adverse publicity they garnered?
Wanna bet they are much more cautious before infringing on somebody's rights?

I'll wager there will be positive change arising from this case.

Blessings,
M-Taliesin

 

[RandallFlagg]

Longmont or Loveland?

Longmont, please.

 

[mahkagari]

With the yucky cheese thing, though....no offense, but you agree to those terms as a condition of entry.

Which is why I won't be back. I didn't realize it when I entered. But again, no way on the gods' green earth the law will be on their side if I chose to just leave with my own child. There are no "terms of entry" that would allow Ms. McSecurity to detain me or her. The most they could do would be to call LE. Then what would they do? Put out an APB on my description or vehicle as "suspected of kidnapping since a child willingly left with him under no visible duress and no parent in the facility reporting a missing person but most importantly, he didn't have the rubber stamp thingy". If I don't follow their rules, they're going to....ask me to leave because I was....leaving? Are they going to not allow me back to the place I didn't want to go in a town where I don't live?

Snarkiness not directed at you, just the absurdity of the situation.

 

[since9]

In this country, so far, police need reasonable and articulable suspicion of a crime in order to detain a person for any purpose.

Some things I hope I never hear in the U.S.A.:

Haben Sie Ihre Papiere? … Ihre Papiere sind nicht im Auftrag. Gekommen mit uns.

您是否有您的资料？ … 您的资料不按顺序。 来与我们。

Do you have your papers? ... Your papers are not in order. Come with us.​

According to your argument, JamesCanby, the firearm really has NOTHING to do with it. Any person walking down the street may be a person with a warrant out for their arrest. So, according to your theory, the police should be able to stop anyone in public to identify themselves and check for warrants. The gun has nothing to do with it.

It is impossible for me to see both sides of the argument, and luckily, those that wrote the Bill of Rights couldn't see both sides either.

+1.

 

[since9]

Howdy Pard!
The story is right here amigo! Settled out of court for 15k and a promise to improve officer training.

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...face-lawsuit-for-detaining-legal-open-carrier

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...d-CO-pays-15-000-to-settle-open-carry-lawsuit

Wanna bet they don't want another lawsuit situation like this?
Wanna bet they didn't enjoy the adverse publicity they garnered?
Wanna bet they are much more cautious before infringing on somebody's rights?

I'll wager there will be positive change arising from this case.

Blessings,
M-Taliesin

When I first started message boarding back in the 1980s, I never dreamed it would grow to become a place where the rapid sharing of information would prove so beneficial to a free society. I don't know why I'm surprised, though. Perhaps awed is a better word: I am awed that our Founding Fathers were savvy enough to see the handwriting on the wall with respect to an erosion of our freedoms without an Amendment to protect free speech. Look at China. Speech certainly isn't free, there! The posts of 10% to 30% of active forum members would be enough to land them in jail if they lived and posted the same thing in China.

China cracks down on free speech and the free dissemination of information because they fear a loss of control. Our country has remained strong because free speech has torn down many over-controlling mini-regimes within our nation. Power may corrupt, and the regimes keep popping up like snakes on Hydra's head, but the pen is indeed mightier than the sword, cutting down unhealthy influences like weeds, which gives healthy programs the opportunity to grow in their place.

Like all weeds, however, one must keep hacking away at 'em. God bless message forums for getting the word out and allowing us to provide links to the resources needed to combat the weeds.

 

[M-Taliesin]

Meanwhile, back at the topic...

Howdy Folks!
Not being snarky there, just trying to redirect the thread back to the situation that gave rise to it.

I'd like to hear what's up with the OP. Any changes? Talked with a lawyer yet? Filed complaints? What's the latest on this issue?

Personally, I'd file criminal charges against the cop who drew his weapon with the District Attorney for assault with a deadly weapon. Assault isn't actually making physical attack, but the threat of imminent force. (i.e. assault and battery) - if I swing my fist at you, that's assault. If my fist arrives in the same space currently occupied by your nose, that's battery. Both taken together are assault and battery.

Anyhow, what's the situation now that the celebration of our liberties is over while this citizen's liberties were infringed and violated?

Blessings,
M-Taliesin

 

[Lokster]

Still steaming

Alright, I just got home from a trip over to Lakewood PD to submit an open records request and file a complaint with Internal Affairs. It's probably going to take 3 to 5 days before I should expect to have the documents pertaining to my detainment. Ok, that's understandable enough however my conversation with a detective in IA was far less than productive. After describing all of the details of the event to him he addressed my grievances one by one, but said in not so few words that the way the officers handled the situation was typical procedure. A procedure that he himself when on patrol would have handled the same way. I left knowing for sure that myself or any other OC'er in Lakewood should expect a similar encounter to the one I had on Saturday. I told the detective that I am in the process of seeking counsel with intent to file suit. Such is my situation.

I can't believe any of you other guys who OC in Lakewood or around Belmar have never had a similar police encounter. The detective informed me that I was not the only one to ever file a complaint like this. Have any of you Lakewood guys ever had any police encounters while OC?

 

[Kingfish]

If you are considering legal action, it may be wise to delete ALL references to the incident from public spaces and refrain from posting about it.

 

[M-Taliesin]

After describing all of the details of the event to him he addressed my grievances one by one, but said in not so few words that the way the officers handled the situation was typical procedure. A procedure that he himself when on patrol would have handled the same way.

Howdy Lokster!
So, in essence, he was saying that his officers have carte blanche to assault citizens with drawn weapons and impunity over rights of the citizens? Holy cow... I hope you also recorded that discussion. It would be most illustrative for the courts to hear this bit of nonsense.

It would appear that they're in serious need of training in Lakewood, and evidently is a top-down educational opportunity for their department. Wow... I can't believe the guy actually told you that. I can see an officer releasing retention on his own weapon. I can see him perhaps having his hand on the weapon. But to actually draw it and present when other citizens may be injured (or yourself) in a neglent discharge... that is totally incomprehensible to me.

Don't think cops are trained so well as to never negligently discharge their weapon. An Aurora cop who was training for SWAT was killed when shot through the back of his head by another officer with a Mac 10! Accidental discharge.
http://www.odmp.org/officer/4087-patrolman-thomas-joseph-dietzman-jr

Drawing a weapon carelessly by police officers has resulted in citizens being shot or the officer wounding himself many times in the past. There should be no need to draw a weapon when no overt threat exists. It is not only fool hardy, but dangerous.

Soldier on, my friend, and go get 'em! This needs to be taken to the mat, before somebody of the innocent variety gets shot needlessly.

Blessings,
M-Taliesin

 

[230therapy]

Officer, what is your probable cause to believe that I am a felon?

It is well established law that the exercise of a right may never be turned into a crime. They have no PC or RAS that you are committing a crime simply because you are in possession of a firearm.

 

[Gunslinger]

The dick you talked to is as stupid as the thug cop you dealt with. CO law is 'crystal clear' on this, as I posted. Time for them to learn by way of their wallets. I would have said 'your ignorance of the law in this state is appalling. Can't wait to get you on the stand.' In a nice way, of course.

 

[TheLittleMan]

Meet at Belmar?

This story is really interesting i can't wait to see how it all plays out. Hopefully you get a settlement and teach these cops a lesson.

I think it would be a good idea for as many of us as possible to pick a day and go to Belmar OCing and hangout. Watch a movie, get some Jamba Juice, maybe eat at that Sushi Place down there. Really let these Crooked Cops know we wont allow them to harass us individually or they'll have to do all of us at once.

 

[yotebuster223]

This story is really interesting i can't wait to see how it all plays out. Hopefully you get a settlement and teach these cops a lesson.

I think it would be a good idea for as many of us as possible to pick a day and go to Belmar OCing and hangout. Watch a movie, get some Jamba Juice, maybe eat at that Sushi Place down there. Really let these Crooked Cops know we wont allow them to harass us individually or they'll have to do all of us at once.

Count me in and let me know.

 

[JamesB]

This story is really interesting i can't wait to see how it all plays out. Hopefully you get a settlement and teach these cops a lesson.

I think it would be a good idea for as many of us as possible to pick a day and go to Belmar OCing and hangout. Watch a movie, get some Jamba Juice, maybe eat at that Sushi Place down there. Really let these Crooked Cops know we wont allow them to harass us individually or they'll have to do all of us at once.

Sign me up!!