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Photography Merits Pat-Down Search

HandyHamlet

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Messages
2,772
Location
Terra, Sol
Los Angeles County Sheriff's Commander: Officers Trained That "Potential Terrorist" Activity Such as Photography Merits Pat-Down Search

Sunday, October 23, 2011
by Greggory Moore

1:50pm | Captain Steven M. Roller of the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department has told Long Beach Post that it is standard practice to detain and pat down photographers for "potential terrorist" activity such as photographing a courthouse.

His latest installment reveals that Los Angeles County Sheriff's deputies are trained to search photographers who are taking pictures in public, which is illegal (the patdown, not the photography).

Here is what Captain Steven Roller told Moore:

I'm going to make sure, just real quick, I'm going to do a non-invasive pat-down, okay? And now I'm sure this guy doesn't have a weapon. Now I can kind of relax a bit and do the second part of this thing and find out why he's taking pictures of the courthouse, okay? … If you ever read anything about training material, they always tell you after you make sure there's no secreted weapons, then you always want to keep an eye on the hands. … But I know certainly that if I would have said, 'Can I see some identification?' that would have been too late. Because if I had said, 'Can I see some identification?' and you're going to reach back and get your wallet out of your back pocket, that's too late to suddenly say, 'Oh, maybe I need to pat you down to make sure you don't have a weapon,' because you're already going for the back pocket. That would have been too late.

{snip}

Roller also confirmed that the aesthetics of the photographic subject is a criterion in determining whether a photographer's activity is suspicious.



Screenshot2011-10-23at101717AM.png
 

SovereignAxe

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Joined
Jul 29, 2011
Messages
791
Location
Elizabethton, TN
As a photographer, who occasionally enjoys architectural photography, this is very disturbing to me.

And you can bet that if this were going on in my area that I'd be getting every photography buddy I had-including every photography student I studied with, to go downtown with our cameras and take pictures of government buildings and see how many cops they'd waste to come pat us all down.
 

Saber379

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2011
Messages
12
Location
Lincoln, NE
I wonder if they will be watching every car that drives by to see if they have a camera and pull them over. They never think about these things. Its just like Open Carry, Do you think the criminal is going to OC in a holster. Do you think a Terrorist is going to stand out in the open and snap a bunch of pics. They are more likely to sit in a car with a telephoto lens and take pics . So again law abiding citizens are harassed taking up resources from the true problem.
 

Dreamer

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Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
5,360
Location
Grennsboro NC
When a society decides to allow police to determine what does and does not have "artistic merit", the true end of freedom has arrived...
 

PistolPackingMomma

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
1,884
Location
SC
I wonder what they would do if I covered up my Nikon logo with a Glock logo? :p If I use my telephoto lens, would that be considered a "scope"? :banghead:
 

Jack House

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Joined
Jun 12, 2010
Messages
2,611
Location
I80, USA
Interestingly enough, it is the parts that are highlighted that I find the most concerning.

I'm going to make sure, just real quick, I'm going to do a non-invasive pat-down, okay? And now I'm sure this guy doesn't have a weapon. Now I can kind of relax a bit and do the second part of this thing and find out why he's taking pictures of the courthouse, okay? … If you ever read anything about training material, they always tell you after you make sure there's no secreted weapons, then you always want to keep an eye on the hands. … But I know certainly that if I would have said, 'Can I see some identification?' that would have been too late. Because if I had said, 'Can I see some identification?' and you're going to reach back and get your wallet out of your back pocket, that's too late to suddenly say, 'Oh, maybe I need to pat you down to make sure you don't have a weapon,' because you're already going for the back pocket. That would have been too late.
 

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
"1:50pm | Captain Steven M. Roller of the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department has told Long Beach Post that it is standard practice to detain and pat down photographers for "potential terrorist" activity such as photographing a courthouse."

I suggest Capt ROTFL target the Google Map/Earth vehicles running all over the place. They've probably photographed 90% of all the courthouses here in America, and those pics are now available worldwide, so by his definition... Go get 'em! And watch Google counter with a very well-funded Billion Dollar Lawsuit.

Many courthouses are historical landmarks. At the very least, their architecture is noteworthy and worthy of being photographed.

Since Capt Roller seems incapable of understanding this, I question him being worthy of his rank.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
Semi-non-rhetorical question:

Don't these cops/deputies get in-service training? This issue has been througfh the courts in just about every state, territory, commonwealth, and Protectorate in the US of A, and none of them have upheld the cops stopping, taking film/sd-cards, or forcing images to be deleted. And this was not all just in the last few days!

One would think that with all the civil rights cases that LEO/LEA follow they would by now understand that once a ruling comes down it pretty well puts them on notice that doing the same thing themselves voids their soverign immunity defense and opens them up to paying out money both personally and from the department budget. Or (asking seriously) are they going for a judicial determination that they are not a reasonable officer who should have known the behavior was not permitted? See http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-4th-circuit/1075088.html for the only case I know of where the LEO (OK, a prison guard) hoped to be found by the courts to be stupid.

stay safe.
 

McNutty

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2011
Messages
84
Location
Waukesha, Wisconsin
I’ve always thought my interest in photography was kind of a “nerdy” hobby. I’m even taking a class next month…. I didn’t realize that taking photos of architecture around government buildings, maybe (God forbid) an interesting bridge, may make me a potential terrorist suspect.

I'm going to make sure, just real quick, I'm going to do a non-invasive pat-down, okay? And now I'm sure this guy doesn't have a weapon. Now I can kind of relax a bit and do the second part of this thing and find out why he's taking pictures of the courthouse, okay?

Unfortunately, I think this mentality of far too many LEOs and, regardless of the legal requirements, is probably reflective of the real world practice of LEOs. I once worked on a legal matter where the LEO readily admitted in court that it was his practice to perform a pat down on everyone that he encountered – it’s just a quick non-invasive pat down so I’ll feel better…. It’s just another example of the expanding exercise of police powers at the expense of personal liberty for the sake of keeping us safe in the name of a war on terror.

I realize that my crappy photos are probably criminal in some people’s opinions but I didn’t think that I’d need to worry about being subject to a pat down for trying.
 

ixtow

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Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
5,038
Location
Suwannee County, FL
One of my favorite things to do when approached by a LEO who starts giving me orders without cause, is to put my hands in my pockets...
 
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