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This is why you should CC and not OC

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WalkingWolf

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dude. ambush is nothing but terminology. you are trying to be little me cause you can't argue against my point. rob pincus uses the terminology "counter ambush" and he is one of the top guys in the industry. i don't just pull my gun on random people. I'm not playing bad a$$ i carry for defensive purposes. i would never pull my gun unless me or other are in a life threatening situation.

ambush is defined by attacking by surprise. so would you rather i say attack by surprise? would it make you feel better? because it means the same thing dude.

There is no such thing as surprise unless you are breaking the law and using deadly force when it is not authorized. Please stay in your mother's basement with your gun and badge. Surprise a non threatening person is NOT defense, that is offense. Of course you ever use your gun you will figure that out playing pick up the soap in the grey bar hotel.
 

Gallowmere

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i guess i don't understand where you are going with this. the north hollywood shootout guys decided to duke it out with a bunch of cops. of course they were high. you don't know who's on what anymore. they could choose to martyr themselves thinking they are going to jail. i don't know man I'm not a mind reader. when someone is pointing a gun at you do you want to wait to draw your gun just because they froze and saw your gun? hoping they will just give up at that moment? its your choice.

Your statement makes it sound like just because I am OCing, my gun suddenly ceases to function. The visibility of the weapon is a deterrent. It won't deter 100% of course, and that's where it's primary purpose comes in...making bits of metal fly at several hundred miles per hour. As others here have pointed out, if you are not justified in killing someone, then you are not justified in pointing your gun at someone. You don't do it preemptively.

That leads into this point: The BEST concealed draws I have ever seen were about 0.75 seconds slower than the same person drawing from open, both going from holster to ready. Now, that doesn't sound like much, but you know as well as I do that even half a second can be the difference between eating a bullet, and giving someone else lead poisoning first. All other things being equal, OC draws will ALWAYS be faster, and even the most staunch of CC advocates openly admit that fact. You also seriously reduce the risk of silly **** happening, like your gun getting caught in your shirt or jacket. Under the affects of adrenaline, your fingers basically turn into flippers, and unless you are very well versed in CC draws, you may just end up, not only being dead, but looking really damned stupid in the process. People don't practice enough for either draw in my opinion, but I seem to see a strong bias toward "I got this ****" attitudes amongst CCers.

action is faster than reaction. i train to "get off the x" and draw at the same time. now not only do they have to react but they also have to track my movement.

Oh crap...I knew I smelled a Yeager fanboy. I respect a lot of things about the guy, but his opinions on CC vs. OC and his Glock fetish are not among them.
 
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Grapeshot

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dude. ambush is nothing but terminology. you are trying to be little me cause you can't argue against my point. rob pincus uses the terminology "counter ambush" and he is one of the top guys in the industry. i don't just pull my gun on random people. I'm not playing bad a$$ i carry for defensive purposes. i would never pull my gun unless me or other are in a life threatening situation.

ambush is defined by attacking by surprise. so would you rather i say attack by surprise? would it make you feel better? because it means the same thing dude.

Words mean something - you pick and choose to support an ill applied contention.

An ambush is a planned operation, waiting for the opposition. It is not a sudden reaction to a bad guy, in spite of whatever training one might have in formulating ambushes.

Begs the question - is there such a thing as a counter, counter ambush....and how far does one explore this absurdity.

I grow weary of this side track/off topic conversation.

Back to the OP or suffer thread lock.
 

g21sfpistol

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There is no such thing as surprise unless you are breaking the law and using deadly force when it is not authorized. Please stay in your mother's basement with your gun and badge. Surprise a non threatening person is NOT defense, that is offense. Of course you ever use your gun you will figure that out playing pick up the soap in the grey bar hotel.

There is no such thing as surprise unless you are breaking the law and using deadly force when it is not authorized. ok what does that mean? you are a ninja and know when an ambush, excuse me attack by surprise, is coming? so if i get caught off guard while shopping at victoria secrets and a guy comes in shooting I'm breaking the law if i use deadly force to defend myself or others? cops get caught off guard all the time. soldiers get caught off guard all the time. chuck norris has even been caught off guard.

it sounds to me like you are trying to say I'm gunna pull my gun on a non threatening person? i have already stated i wouldn't pull my gun unless I'm in a life threatening situation. so your comments are confusing. they sound like random attacks to my statements cause you have no rebuttals that would have no merit. i live in my own house and my parents are dead zoo i can't possibly live in my mothers basement.
 

g21sfpistol

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Your statement makes it sound like just because I am OCing, my gun suddenly ceases to function. The visibility of the weapon is a deterrent. It won't deter 100% of course, and that's where it's primary purpose comes in...making bits of metal fly at several hundred miles per hour. As others here have pointed out, if you are not justified in killing someone, then you are not justified in pointing your gun at someone. You don't do it preemptively.

That leads into this point: The BEST concealed draws I have ever seen were about 0.75 seconds slower than the same person drawing from open, both going from holster to ready. Now, that doesn't sound like much, but you know as well as I do that even half a second can be the difference between eating a bullet, and giving someone else lead poisoning first. All other things being equal, OC draws will ALWAYS be faster, and even the most staunch of CC advocates openly admit that fact. You also seriously reduce the risk of silly **** happening, like your gun getting caught in your shirt or jacket. Under the affects of adrenaline, your fingers basically turn into flippers, and unless you are very well versed in CC draws, you may just end up, not only being dead, but looking really damned stupid in the process. People don't practice enough for either draw in my opinion, but I seem to see a strong bias toward "I got this ****" attitudes amongst CCers.



Oh crap...I knew I smelled a Yeager fanboy. I respect a lot of things about the guy, but his opinions on CC vs. OC and his Glock fetish are not among them.

haha. he doesn't own the phrase "get off the x" i guess id have to see this .75 seconds slower deal. I'm not calling you a lier but i draw just as fast as from concealment as i can with a open holster.
 

Gallowmere

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There is no such thing as surprise unless you are breaking the law and using deadly force when it is not authorized. ok what does that mean? you are a ninja and know when an ambush, excuse me attack by surprise, is coming? so if i get caught off guard while shopping at victoria secrets and a guy comes in shooting I'm breaking the law if i use deadly force to defend myself or others? cops get caught off guard all the time. soldiers get caught off guard all the time. chuck norris has even been caught off guard.

it sounds to me like you are trying to say I'm gunna pull my gun on a non threatening person? i have already stated i wouldn't pull my gun unless I'm in a life threatening situation. so your comments are confusing. they sound like random attacks to my statements cause you have no rebuttals that would have no merit. i live in my own house and my parents are dead zoo i can't possibly live in my mothers basement.

What he is doing, is called deconstructing a poorly worded argument. You are trying to convince people of something, but your choice of words is leaving you looking like a dangerous *******. The following suggestion may sound snide, but it's not intended that way: read Rhetoric by Aristotle. It will help you immensely in forming coherent arguments for your points, that don't come back to bite you in the ass.
 

g21sfpistol

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i see where this is going. my comments are now being blocked in response to others. some how my answers to others are off topic but their questions/attacks rant off topic. we don't like people to come here and argue any logic so we will block them. thats a mature way to prove your points and push for your cause. funny.

--Moderator Note--
Split off these posts from amother thread
 
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Freedom1Man

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4,462
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Greater Eastside Washington
OC has been proven to the satisfaction of many as being an effective deterent - read the writing on the wall, sir.

You belabor the point and take on the trappings of a provocateur. Your choice of how you carry is just that - your choice - but you can't seem to leave it there. Suggest you stop while you are ahead.

This is first and foremost a site dedicated to normalizing OC as we go about our everyday lives. Many here have extensive knowledge and experience - don't insult us.

+1 and most if the time I can't ever fully agree with Grapeshot.

Grape, you nailed it with that response.
 

dakatak87

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Livingston County
How long will this "insane" debate of a thread continue? I have personally seen threads with a more credible subject become locked. Arguing with the internet as a whole on your opinion is futile. OP's choice is to CC. I choose to OC. To each their own.

I do believe there are people out there that because of their personalities and characteristics should choose not to carry a gun at all. This is said with no one person in mind. Who are we to say who can and can't carry or how.

Why we carry is the question we all need to ask ourselves every time we carry.

I came to this forum for carry support in general. Let us all be the adults we are and quit bickering over opinions.
 

Primus

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There is no such thing as surprise unless you are breaking the law and using deadly force when it is not authorized. ok what does that mean? you are a ninja and know when an ambush, excuse me attack by surprise, is coming? so if i get caught off guard while shopping at victoria secrets and a guy comes in shooting I'm breaking the law if i use deadly force to defend myself or others? cops get caught off guard all the time. soldiers get caught off guard all the time. chuck norris has even been caught off guard.

it sounds to me like you are trying to say I'm gunna pull my gun on a non threatening person? i have already stated i wouldn't pull my gun unless I'm in a life threatening situation. so your comments are confusing. they sound like random attacks to my statements cause you have no rebuttals that would have no merit. i live in my own house and my parents are dead zoo i can't possibly live in my mothers basement.

False.

Chuck Norris has NEVER been caught off guard.

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
 

MAC702

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Nevada
this is why you should CC and not OC. tactical advantage. not a lot of people get that concept...

Actually, you are right.

If you want to shoot a bad guy, concealing your sidearm is a huge tactical advantage.

If you'd rather be left alone, though....
 

Rusty Young Man

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How long will this "insane" debate of a thread continue? I have personally seen threads with a more credible subject become locked. Arguing with the internet as a whole on your opinion is futile. OP's choice is to CC. I choose to OC. To each their own.

I do believe there are people out there that because of their personalities and characteristics should choose not to carry a gun at all. This is said with no one person in mind. Who are we to say who can and can't carry or how.

Why we carry is the question we all need to ask ourselves every time we carry.

I came to this forum for carry support in general. Let us all be the adults we are and quit bickering over opinions.

The problem is the OP (of this thread split) is making the incredible allegation that he can somehow draw from CC as fast as he would from OC. Note it is physically IMPOSSIBLE for a given person to perform the same action, with more barriers, in the same amount of time. As an aside to this, he forgets that clothes may require a hand to move out of the way while hand #2 goes to draw. This is especially true under Murphy's Law conditions (on ground, clothing stuck, etc.).

If the OP were merely stating "I know it isn't the simplest method, or the quickest method, or the method that actually provides deterrence, BUT I still prefer to carry that way," it wouldn't be as insulting as some of the (debunked) claims he's made so far.


On topic: still writing up a protocol for a controlled experiment pitting handgun (sorry to those who actually carry long guns:() OC vs CC in terms of draw time only. I will post the protocol here as a new when it is finished, but please forgive the long wait time, seeing as this semester is a lot denser than I thought it would be.:(

Here is a general outline:
People from different walks of life and different levels of experience with handguns (will probably have to use Simunition for the complete newbies, who will serve as the control group)
Draw from standing, kneeling, and laying on back, laying on front, and laying on either side
Professionally-timed (high-speed camera) reactions; this may be the most difficult to acquire, in terms of cost and availability


Interactive situations (if I find a way to get one local range's support, and using Simunition only, for obvious reasons:rolleyes:):
Draw when "surprised" by assailant while walking through simulated town.


At the request of several members, James Yeager and Rob Pincus will be invited to participate (though one has to consider whether there may be an intentional bias towards OC draw time).
 

DaveT319

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On topic: still writing up a protocol for a controlled experiment pitting handgun (sorry to those who actually carry long guns:() OC vs CC in terms of draw time only. I will post the protocol here as a new when it is finished, but please forgive the long wait time, seeing as this semester is a lot denser than I thought it would be.:(

Here is a general outline:
People from different walks of life and different levels of experience with handguns (will probably have to use Simunition for the complete newbies, who will serve as the control group)
Draw from standing, kneeling, and laying on back, laying on front, and laying on either side
Professionally-timed (high-speed camera) reactions; this may be the most difficult to acquire, in terms of cost and availability


Interactive situations (if I find a way to get one local range's support, and using Simunition only, for obvious reasons:rolleyes:):
Draw when "surprised" by assailant while walking through simulated town.


At the request of several members, James Yeager and Rob Pincus will be invited to participate (though one has to consider whether there may be an intentional bias towards OC draw time).

Great idea! It would be interesting to get solid data on the issue.

May I make a couple suggestions? First, find people who have been carrying in their preferred method for 1, 2, 3, 5, 10, and 15 plus years. Then test them in each position. Then RETEST them using the carry method they don't use. This would get some good comparative data, especially from the side of people who have practiced CC draws a lot but not OC. The reverse would also be interesting.

However you do it, I'll be watching for the results.
 

Rusty Young Man

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Great idea! It would be interesting to get solid data on the issue.

May I make a couple suggestions? First, find people who have been carrying in their preferred method for 1, 2, 3, 5, 10, and 15 plus years. Then test them in each position. Then RETEST them using the carry method they don't use. This would get some good comparative data, especially from the side of people who have practiced CC draws a lot but not OC. The reverse would also be interesting.

However you do it, I'll be watching for the results.

Yes, the idea is to have every subject (in the scientific sense:)) draw from both OC and CC under each given condition in order to have comparable results. The idea is to quantify the time elapsed between
(1) "attack" and controlled fire
(2) "attack" and unholstered weapon pointed towards general area of target
(3) "attack" and unholstered weapon clear of holster


The "levels of expertise" are along the lines of:

Military (recent service)
Military (5-10 years since service)
Military (10+ years since service)
LEO (active)
LEO (recent retiree)
LEO (5+ years since retirement)

Range master (professional competitors, instructors, and Yeagers:p)

Armed LAC (OC heavily preferred, 20+ range hours/month)
Armed LAC (OC heavily preferred, 10-20 range hours/month)
Armed LAC (OC heavily preferred, less than 10 range hours/month)

Armed LAC (CC heavily preferred, 20+ range hours/month)
Armed LAC (CC heavily preferred, 10-20 range hours/month)
Armed LAC (CC heavily preferred, less than 10 range hours/month)

Semi-newbie (has handled handguns before) [unbiased; control group]
Complete newbie (receives on-site instruction) [unbiased; control group]

But I hadn't thought of having gradations based by years of carrying/experience. So far, the one requirement for the armed LACs was that the method of carry had been exercised regularly for AT LEAST the past two years (lowered it from five, originally).
I like the idea of having the years be recorded though. Thanks for the suggestion!:)
 
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Aknazer

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haha do you want to blend in or be a target? why did the corps issue me woodland and desert cammo then? sound like by your logic we should have been issued red gear. you can still blend in but be alert and ready. of course it has been established here because this is a OC site.

And why does the corps along with all other branches of service require one to OC their weapon (even their pistol if issued one) when down range? Oh that's right, the general said it was so that any enemy who does manage to sneak on base knows that you're armed and thus is less likely to try something. The point of camo is so that you can work to get the drop on the enemy because you're in an offensive role. Not to mention the differences between an enemy force that is actively trying to kill you and a regular criminal/thug.

Honestly I don't really expect you to respond, as such my reply is more aimed at anyone who has a truly open mind and might come across this. There is so much wrong with your statement that has already been gone over ad nausium on this forum, but I figured I would respond to the bit that is a different from the most common of statements.
 

Grapeshot

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How long will this "insane" debate of a thread continue? I have personally seen threads with a more credible subject become locked. Arguing with the internet as a whole on your opinion is futile. OP's choice is to CC. I choose to OC. To each their own.

I do believe there are people out there that because of their personalities and characteristics should choose not to carry a gun at all. This is said with no one person in mind. Who are we to say who can and can't carry or how.

Why we carry is the question we all need to ask ourselves every time we carry.

I came to this forum for carry support in general. Let us all be the adults we are and quit bickering over opinions.

No disrespect intended - you can Unsubscribe to the thread and neither read it nor post to it.

I don't care whether one OCs, CCs, or noCs. What is important is that they do no harm to those that choose to support the RKBA.

Some that will argue against one method of carry over another are trolls, provocateurs, antis or just poorly informed users/posters.

We have an obligation (we welcome all) to at least give them the benefit of the doubt. Having done that we don't leave bad information unattended. There are fence sitters to consider. We provide the facts/truth for them also.

The thread will remain open, unless circumstances dictate otherwise.
 

g21sfpistol

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Actually, you are right.

If you want to shoot a bad guy, concealing your sidearm is a huge tactical advantage.

If you'd rather be left alone, though....

I don't want to shoot anyone. Doesn't anyone ever think that CC also benefits the general public. BG thoughts: who's carrying a gun? Heck I don't know anymore.
 
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