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First not so nice encounter

gripping hand

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2014
Messages
14
Location
Central MS
Okay, let me be sure I understand this.

You appear in a public place, openly displaying a weapon. You meet a woman who doesn't know you, your intentions, your temperament, or your ability to use the weapon safely or judiciously.

She expresses her unease and attempts to dissuade you from your shopping plan.

You stand your constitutionally sanctioned ground, explaining that it is perfectly legal for you to ignore her discomfort and go about your business.

Not entirely satisfied with your explanation, she keeps an eye on you until she deems that you are no longer an immediate potential threat.

Are you annoyed with her because she didn't see you as an heroic armed patriot keeping the isles of Walmart safe or because she seemed to be performing the same function without the ostentatious hardware?

The best advice I received when I began carrying a handgun was "don't scare the horses" and "don't make yourself a target." OC seems to violate both those precepts. I'm not saying OC is bad, it just seems misguided.
 

gripping hand

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2014
Messages
14
Location
Central MS
You appear in a public place, openly displaying a weapon. You meet a woman who doesn't know you, your intentions, your temperament, or your ability to use the weapon safely or judiciously.

She expresses her unease and attempts to dissuade you from your shopping plan.

You stand your constitutionally sanctioned ground, explaining that it is perfectly legal for you to ignore her discomfort and go about your business.

Not entirely satisfied with your explanation, she keeps an eye on you until she deems that you are no longer an immediate potential threat.

Are you annoyed with her because she didn't see you as an heroic armed patriot keeping the isles of Walmart safe or because she seemed to be performing the same function without the ostentatious hardware?

The best advice I received when I began carrying a handgun was "don't scare the horses" and "don't make yourself a target." OC seems to violate both those precepts. I'm not saying OC is bad, it just seems misguided.

Okay, looking back on this, it might be seen as confrontational. I apologize. That was not my intent.

What I'm looking for is an explanation of the point of OC other than "because I can". Not everyone you meet is going to be comfortable with it and I can't help thinking that the only people you're going to convert are the people who already see it your way. I would just like to have someone explain the tactical or political advantage to something that is seen as rude or scary to an appreciable percentage of the people you will encounter every day. Just because they don't speak up doesn't mean they approve are or comfortable with your choice.

And yes, I'm new to this forum, but I don't OC. I'm looking for guidance on an issue that just doesn't make sense to me. I'm willing to agree to disagree.
 
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marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Don't let 'em get to you. Subtle ridicule can be way more fun, anyway.

Smile. Tell her that you charge for bodyguard services, and suggest that she can provide them for herself.

Edit: Just realized this was a necro-response. Oh well.
 
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marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Okay, looking back on this, it might be seen as confrontational. I apologize. That was not my intent.

What I'm looking for is an explanation of the point of OC other than "because I can". Not everyone you meet is going to be comfortable with it and I can't help thinking that the only people you're going to convert are the people who already see it your way. I would just like to have someone explain the tactical or political advantage to something that is seen as rude or scary to an appreciable percentage of the people you will encounter every day. Just because they don't speak up doesn't mean they approve are or comfortable with your choice.

And yes, I'm new to this forum, but I don't OC. I'm looking for guidance on an issue that just doesn't make sense to me. I'm willing to agree to disagree.

Most of us OC because it's the better choice tactically, and in terms of comfort – and normalizing the 2A is nice, too.

"OC doesn't make sense" is something we hear a lot. Part of the reason so many of us have been around here so long is that, in the process of refining rebuttals, we've realized ours is really the far stronger position, logically. We've come to the conclusion that the "OC makes you a target" is one of those trendy bromides that sounds very convincing when every CC instructor your hear repeats it in unison, but it doesn't stand up to rigorous rebuttal (not to mention that most of those CC instructors have a financial interest in pushing the service they sell).

We just had a thread (for the millionth time) about this. It was locked for its redundancy, so I hope you'll forgive me quoting myself from that thread:



None of us think it's a magic talisman. What we're saying is that your objections are poorly thought-out.

Sure. Some criminal could decide to target me for my gun. It's probably happened before (though none of the cases you've submitted so far are kosher).

But you know what's a lot more common than hardened, dedicated, die-hard criminals picking the hardest target around for a meager reward at an immense of risk? You guessed it: lazy, opportunistic criminals looking for the easiest mark around so they can make a quick buck while minimizing risk.

So, you say I make myself a target to the one die-hard criminal by OCing. Perhaps. But then, you make yourself a target to the hundreds of opportunistic criminals by CCing and, thereby, presenting an apparently unarmed and (therefore) soft target.

Which is the greater risk? Well, the stakes are life-or-death either way, aren't they? And the risk you, the CCer, assume is numerically more prevalent. This is easy to demonstrate: you search high and low to find one or two - probably BS - stories of OCers robbed, but I could with trivial effort present dozens of cases of CCers being robbed (as you well know). By logic no less rigorous than yours, these CCers have all been "targeted" "for" being (apparently) unarmed, and therefore "for" concealing a firearm they could have worn openly.

And, once a criminal does decide he likes you, by the time your concealed weapon has a chance to deter him you've been backed into a corner and left with little choice but to shoot the guy.

You wanna share anecdotes? Remember that CCer who killed some 10 year old kid who tried to rob him with an airsoft gun? Justified, sure, but don't you think that CCer would have preferred to not shoot a 10-year-old (however justified)? And don't you suspect that that 10-year-old would have not tried to rob, using his toy, someone he knew to have a real gun?

Or, what about those guys who planned to rob a Waffle House down in GA, only to be deterred by a couple customers carrying handguns? The criminals were themselves armed, as we learned when they were arrested out back. What were they doing, you ask, hanging around behind the Waffle House with guns and criminal intent? That's right: waiting for the armed citizens to leave. How do you imagine that would have played out had the customers been concealed carrying? I figure a gunfight, at best.

Life is risk. Pick your risk, accept the consequences. From where I sit, though, the risk you've chosen seems like the greater one.​



http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...nals-Will-Attack-Open-Carriers-First-quot-B-S
 
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BB62

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
Messages
4,069
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Okay, looking back on this, it might be seen as confrontational. I apologize. That was not my intent...
I agree with most of what you said, and don't consider it confrontational, but it seems that in posting what you did you didn't recognize two things: 1) most of what you said had already been said, quite possibly because... 2) the OP's post was made about a year ago.

Regardless, welcome to OCDO!
 

gripping hand

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2014
Messages
14
Location
Central MS
Okay Marshaul, your point is well thought out and I won't argue it's merit. It does seem to assume that the OC carrier has greater tactical awareness than the CC and that OC are better not traveling alone, but I'll agree to disagree. As far as speed and comfort go, I submit that I've been doing this a long time and neither is a problem. A firearm is like a fire extinguisher, the first rule is to have one available.

How do you address the issue of people made uncomfortable by your choice? Does the perceived tactical advantage against the statistically unlikely need outweigh the everyday discomfort of those who don't support your choice?

I'm still not happy about all the signs popping up forbidding firearms in more and more places. I can't help seeing increased OC as a large part of the cause.

Thanks for your response and I really do want to understand your POV.
 
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lockman

State Researcher
Joined
Aug 19, 2006
Messages
1,193
Location
Elgin, Illinois, USA
How do you address the issue of people made uncomfortable by your choice? Does the perceived tactical advantage against the statistically unlikely need outweigh the everyday discomfort of those who don't support your choice?

I'm still not happy about all the signs popping up forbidding firearms in more and more places. I can't help seeing increased OC as a large part of the cause.

POV.

Uncomfortable vs. Fundamental rights, who do you think should prevail?

I personally am tired of sacrifices to appease people's "comfort", those same people do not seem to care about my family's safety, or my "comfort".
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Okay, your point is well thought out and I won't argue it's merit. It does seem to assume that the OC carrier has greater tactical awareness than the CC and that OC are better not traveling alone, but I'll agree to disagree. As far as speed and comfort go, I submit that I've been doing this a long time and neither is a problem. A firearm is like a fire extinguisher, the first rule is to have one available.

How do you address the issue of people made uncomfortable by your choice? Does the perceived tactical advantage against the statistically unlikely need outweigh the everyday discomfort of those who don't support your choice?

I'm still not happy about all the signs popping up forbidding firearms in more and more places. I can't help seeing increased OC as a large part of the cause.

Thanks for your response and I really do want to understand your POV.

CC can be "fast enough" and "comfortable enough". But OC will always be faster, and more comfortable. Try it for a while if you doubt me -- get a nice leather thumbreak belt holster for maximum comfort; practice drawing from OC and, when you get good, time yourself compared to drawing from concealment.

Whether you view that speed or comfort increase as significant is up to you. Some folks may view speed as irrelevant, while others may find that CC is only marginally less comfortable (while still others find it downright painful).

Regarding situational awareness, yes, I do presuppose a certain degree of that. If you're walking around obviously oblivious in "condition white", that fact alone will make you a target, regardless of OC/CC/no carry. OC or CC, the carrier is behooved to be aware of his surroundings at all time. Personally, I try to keep a mental record of every person in my vicinity, and keep it updated as to what each person is/has been doing.

I don't find that many people are made uncomfortable by my choice. I get overwhelmingly positive reactions.

I've had exactly one "negative" encounter in the last several months (year?), and it went like this:

Guy: (laughing) Is it really necessary to be armed in the grocery store?

Me: Well, I suppose it's not necessary right now. And if I knew it might be, I'd probably leave. But it's one of those things: you don't need it until you do, at which point it's too late to go get it.

Guy: Huh. I didn't think of it that way. I guess you're right, kind of like a fire extinguisher.

Me: Exactly! Or a seat belt.​

The guy saw my analogy before I even had a chance to make it! Hard to complain about that. :lol:

Most folks don't even react, however, and when they do 19 times out of 20 it's "I'm glad to see someone understands the second amendment!"

I tend to agree that carrying a rifle into Kroger is not doing the cause any favors. But long gun OC is not the same as carrying a handgun in a holster and going about one's normal business. As most OCers will happily relate, the tendency is to experience OC as an effective means of normalizing the RKBA, as I think my recent "negative" encounter demonstrates.

If you must blame OC for the signs popping up, blame long gun OC. Starbucks was 100% cool with it when it was just armed dudes buying coffee. They didn't change their tune until a bunch of asshats started going to Starbucks with ARs for the sole purpose of taking selfies.
 
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gripping hand

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2014
Messages
14
Location
Central MS
Thanks Marshaul. Again, agree to disagree, but I get where you're coming from. I'm glad your interactions have been positive and I'm right there on the long gun OC, though I see it as only a matter of degree.

Oh, and lockman, nightmare? Bless your hearts.
 

gripping hand

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2014
Messages
14
Location
Central MS
Uncomfortable vs. Fundamental rights, who do you think should prevail?

I personally am tired of sacrifices to appease people's "comfort", those same people do not seem to care about my family's safety, or my "comfort".

With only a little forethought, I manage to have both.

Thank you for all your sacrifices.
 

KBCraig

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
4,886
Location
Granite State of Mind
I'm still not happy about all the signs popping up forbidding firearms in more and more places. I can't help seeing increased OC as a large part of the cause.

Are there really more signs popping up? Or, are you just more aware of those that do pop up thanks to the speed of information from the internet?

Your profile says you're from Mississippi, where a recent law clarified the right to OC. Any time we see a law expanding gun rights, we see reporters rushing out to find people who are upset by that. A statistically insignificant number of "no guns" signs can seem like a flood when the stories are repeated often enough and loudly enough by breathless reporters.
 

gripping hand

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2014
Messages
14
Location
Central MS
No he is new to whining about those that do OC.

Hi Walking Wolf. Please excuse my unseemly behavior. As you note, I'm new here and didn't understand asking a legitimate question would be construed as whining.

Would you care to honor me with any other other crumbs of wisdom?

Sorry. That was snarky, but who pissed in your Post Toasties? I just don't understand why Marshaul seems to be the only one interested in helping me deal with an honest desire to understand OC. I CC, so we're not exactly polar opposites. We probably are more alike than we are different. That being said, there are things I will politely disagree on and things I don't understand:

I think open carry has more tactical disadvantages than advantages.

No one on this site seems willing to take responsibility for the discomfort some people feel when confronted with a stranger carrying a gun. The only comments I've seen that addressed it directly were along the lines of "it's your problem, deal with it" and the guy who wanted to send a letter to the store manager when a sales clerk alerted other customers to his OC.

Does this community address appropriate security holsters and belts? What about retention training?

How do you respond to the idea that the proliferation of "no firearms" signs is a result of more OC? And how do we fix it?

If these questions are too hard or embarrassing for you, just say so and I'll look for a less defensive forum where people are willing to share and discuss issues that affect all of us.
 

gripping hand

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2014
Messages
14
Location
Central MS
Are there really more signs popping up? Or, are you just more aware of those that do pop up thanks to the speed of information from the internet?

Hi KBC,
Yes, I'm seeing signs where there were none before. I can't help believing it's cause and effect, but I'll entertain other explanations.
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
Hi Walking Wolf. Please excuse my unseemly behavior. As you note, I'm new here and didn't understand asking a legitimate question would be construed as whining.

Would you care to honor me with any other other crumbs of wisdom?

Sorry. That was snarky, but who pissed in your Post Toasties? I just don't understand why Marshaul seems to be the only one interested in helping me deal with an honest desire to understand OC. I CC, so we're not exactly polar opposites. We probably are more alike than we are different. That being said, there are things I will politely disagree on and things I don't understand:

I think open carry has more tactical disadvantages than advantages.

No one on this site seems willing to take responsibility for the discomfort some people feel when confronted with a stranger carrying a gun. The only comments I've seen that addressed it directly were along the lines of "it's your problem, deal with it" and the guy who wanted to send a letter to the store manager when a sales clerk alerted other customers to his OC.

Does this community address appropriate security holsters and belts? What about retention training?

How do you respond to the idea that the proliferation of "no firearms" signs is a result of more OC? And how do we fix it?

If these questions are too hard or embarrassing for you, just say so and I'll look for a less defensive forum where people are willing to share and discuss issues that affect all of us.
If you stick around you will find that I am blunt, brutally honest, and don't play games. You know why you are here, and you know full well that this is a OC site that you are trying to troll. You are not interested in learning just tossing bombs to get a reaction.

Here it is, I do not care who gets their panties wet if I OC, not you or anybody else. And you will find that I am not the only one. There is no constitutional right to be offended, it is a choice. The problem lies with the person with the phobia, not with the person with common sense.

So let see if I can make this as clear as possible.

I OC because it is my right, it is legal, and with over 45 years experience and not one incident I can say all the BS is just that BS. If you don't want to OC then don't, if you want to CC then do, want to not carry at all then don't. But don't expect a warm welcome for slinging still warm cow pies.

In our state OC is supported by the NC Supreme court ruling Kerner v State, plus the NC and US constitution. I don't give a rat's behind if it strikes fear into some hoplophobe. But in this state people do not go running at the sight of a gun on a LAC, that is because the public is educated, which removes the fear you keep extolling.

As far as signs, I have seen only couple across the whole state. I have been asked in restaurants to return with my firearm, people regularly shake my hand and thank me for OCing. In this state we can carry with any belt we wish or with any holster we wish, it is personal choice, or what some people call freedom.
 

gripping hand

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2014
Messages
14
Location
Central MS
If you stick around you will find that I am blunt, brutally honest, and don't play games. You know why you are here, and you know full well that this is a OC site that you are trying to troll. You are not interested in learning just tossing bombs to get a reaction.

Here it is, I do not care who gets their panties wet if I OC, not you or anybody else. And you will find that I am not the only one. There is no constitutional right to be offended, it is a choice. The problem lies with the person with the phobia, not with the person with common sense.

So let see if I can make this as clear as possible.

I OC because it is my right, it is legal, and with over 45 years experience and not one incident I can say all the BS is just that BS. If you don't want to OC then don't, if you want to CC then do, want to not carry at all then don't. But don't expect a warm welcome for slinging still warm cow pies.

In our state OC is supported by the NC Supreme court ruling Kerner v State, plus the NC and US constitution. I don't give a rat's behind if it strikes fear into some hoplophobe. But in this state people do not go running at the sight of a gun on a LAC, that is because the public is educated, which removes the fear you keep extolling.

As far as signs, I have seen only couple across the whole state. I have been asked in restaurants to return with my firearm, people regularly shake my hand and thank me for OCing. In this state we can carry with any belt we wish or with any holster we wish, it is personal choice, or what some people call freedom.

Thanks WalkingWolf,
I'll concede that you're blunt, but maybe not as good a judge of character as you'd like to believe.

Thanks for your input and bless your heart.
 
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J_dazzle23

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2013
Messages
643
Okay, looking back on this, it might be seen as confrontational. I apologize. That was not my intent.

What I'm looking for is an explanation of the point of OC other than "because I can". Not everyone you meet is going to be comfortable with it and I can't help thinking that the only people you're going to convert are the people who already see it your way. I would just like to have someone explain the tactical or political advantage to something that is seen as rude or scary to an appreciable percentage of the people you will encounter every day. Just because they don't speak up doesn't mean they approve are or comfortable with your choice.

And yes, I'm new to this forum, but I don't OC. I'm looking for guidance on an issue that just doesn't make sense to me. I'm willing to agree to disagree.
I put my two cents in here.

We live in a world FULL of guns. Cops wear them openly. Military wears them openly. The movie industry would not exist without guns. Video games would be limited to NFL and fifa.

We live in a world where people wait and CAMP at the apple store to get the latest iphone. Where people will stay up all night on black Friday to get a foot massager they don't even want because it's on sale. We have bullet bikes, sky diving, diesel trucks and prius cars; transfat soaked chicken wings and mercury dosed tuna fish. Gambling, white water rafting, hunting and gay marriage.

There are literally MILLIONS of things (MANY that are "dangerous" or would make MANY people "uncomfortable ") that we FLOCK to do simply because we WANT to.

But when it comes to something as important as personal defense and human/constitutional right, we have to conform to what other people deem that we "need" or should make them feel a certain way?

To those people, gtfo with that hipocrisy.

I am 6'5" 250 lbs and know how to handle myself, if I wanted to just snap and go on a killing spree, it wouldn't take a gun to do it. What's next, it's illegal to be physically imposing or know martial arts?

(I would never do the above, obviously)

just 20 years ago, gays made everyone and their dog uncomfortable. Now being gay comes with a cool card and a status symbol.

Peoples "feelings" may change year to year. But the more people see firearms as normal parts of self defense, the more they don't mind. Go down to a frontsight class if you don't believe me.
 
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