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2017 Permit Free Carry, HB 112

utbagpiper

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In hopes this site isn't completely dead yet, I'm going to post here in the Utah sub-forum, the first few gun related bills for which language is available on the Utah legislative website. If moderators allow non-Utah xxxxx to derail or shut down constructive discussion of these bills, among those of us who are directly affected by them and by others with useful insights to offer, I will forebear wasting my time with similar posts in the future and will instead move my discussion of such issues exclusively to UCCC. I believe there is great value to getting national perspectives on what we are doing. I'm not all interested in wasting my time to drive up ad revenue for a private xxxx xxx xxxchat group or to be the target of xxx and xxxxx with no constructive hobbies.

With that:

Rep. Lee Perry is the sponsor for HB 112, "Firearm Amendments", or as we know it, permit-free carry or constitutional carry.

Language for this bill is available at the Legislative website at http://le.utah.gov/~2017/bills/static/HB0112.html

This bill does two primary things:

1-For those 21 years of age and older, removes the prohibition on carrying a "Utah-unloaded" firearm concealed without a permit.

It allows a gun to be carried concealed without a permit, under the same conditions that it may be OC'd without a permit.

2-Extends criminal and civil liability protection to any business owner who allows a person with a permit, to carry into that business.

It does not change off-limits locations including locations where one needs a permit to legally carry (school zones including, under Utah's GFSZ law, colleges). Obviously, the bill has no effect on the federal GFSZ with its 1000' exclusion zone around all K-12 schools except for those with a permit from the State in which the school is located. It does not change the conditions under which you can use a gun. It does not change the conditions for obtaining a permit.

If passed, this would be a rather small, but I believe crucial step, toward greater statutory recognition of our Rights to keep and bear arms as protected and guaranteed by both the federal and Utah State constitutions.

Why not go all the way for fully loaded, permit free carry?

Efforts the last couple of years to get fully loaded permit free carry have either been vetoed by the Governor, or died under threat of veto. The GOP delegates sent a strong message of disapproval in convention. But Herbert won handily in the primary and overwhelmingly in the general. So he is our governor for the next four years. Veto overrides are tough, even when a bill passes by a theoretical "veto proof majority" because of the usual cost of convening a veto-override session.

This is a smaller step than most of us want. But as currently written it is step in the right direction, giving up nothing in the process. That is a bill we can and should support, I believe.

Charles
 
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OC for ME

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I remain fuzzy re the loaded/permit thing. I also am fuzzy on the liability w/permit thing. Will a OCing (no permit needed?) citizen not enjoy extended protection?

Good luck Utah.

MO retains RSMo 21.750.3 that grants local jurisdictions to ban OC w/o a permit. If (when?) that prior restraint is eliminated MO will be about as constitutional carry as a state can get.
 

utbagpiper

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I remain fuzzy re the loaded/permit thing. I also am fuzzy on the liability w/permit thing. Will a OCing (no permit needed?) citizen not enjoy extended protection?

Good luck Utah.

Thank you. We will need it.

To clarify. In Utah there are two laws of primary interest regarding possession of a gun on public "streets" (streets defined very broadly) when outside your car.

1-Prohibits possession of a "loaded firearm".

2-The other prohibits possession of a concealed firearm.

"Loaded firearm is defined such that a semi-auto hand gun is loaded only if there is a round in the chamber. A fully loaded magazine can be in the gun and the gun still be legally "unloaded" so long as the chamber is empty.

A permit exempts the holder from both laws above. With a permit, a person may legally carry concealed. He may also choose to carry fully loaded (Conditions 0, 1, or 2, if you like). In Utah, the permit does not require one to carry either concealed or loaded. OC with a permit is legal.

Lacking a permit, a person can carry an uncased gun legally if the gun is not concealed (OC) and if the gun is "not loaded" (meaning no round in the chamber, Israeli carry, or "Utah unloaded).

HB 112 will remove the prohibition on carrying concealed for persons who are 21 years or older. It does not affect the prohibition on carrying fully loaded.

I hope this clarifies.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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Mod's Pet

Kind of like teacher's pet, seems that rule #12 does not apply to certain mod's pets.


(12) NO BASHING OF OTHER GUN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS: Regardless of how convinced you are that another gun rights organization is not doing their job, this is not the place to air those concerns unless they are specifically related to an anti-open carry position taken by that organization. All other rants against other gun rights groups will be deleted or the thread locked.
(emphasis added)

Any bets on whether the mods will actually deign to delete a post from his pet troll?
 
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solus

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Aug 22, 2013
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9,315
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here nc
since your senibilities were pushed to publicly, as is your way of late, lambasting individuals unjustly, all the while as you hide behind a pseudo snake oil salesman facade ~ which is not the first time you have played the card, and shant be the last i presume...

therefore your public display of requesting censorship has prevailed, as i have personally deleted that what Y O U believe violated forum policy

your attention is kindly directed to...

http://www.goutahorg.org/

ipse

added: mate, still hasn't dawned on you who the rooster is... have you?
 
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OC for ME

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Messages
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Thank you. We will need it.

To clarify. In Utah there are two laws of primary interest regarding possession of a gun on public "streets" (streets defined very broadly) when outside your car.

1-Prohibits possession of a "loaded firearm".

2-The other prohibits possession of a concealed firearm.

"Loaded firearm is defined such that a semi-auto hand gun is loaded only if there is a round in the chamber. A fully loaded magazine can be in the gun and the gun still be legally "unloaded" so long as the chamber is empty.

A permit exempts the holder from both laws above. With a permit, a person may legally carry concealed. He may also choose to carry fully loaded (Conditions 0, 1, or 2, if you like). In Utah, the permit does not require one to carry either concealed or loaded. OC with a permit is legal.

Lacking a permit, a person can carry an uncased gun legally if the gun is not concealed (OC) and if the gun is "not loaded" (meaning no round in the chamber, Israeli carry, or "Utah unloaded).

HB 112 will remove the prohibition on carrying concealed for persons who are 21 years or older. It does not affect the prohibition on carrying fully loaded.

I hope this clarifies.

Charles
Yes it does. Thank you. It is unfortunate that a loaded handgun is unlawful w/o permit OC or CC. It seems to me that Utah is working to remedy this but it is evident that legislators are not interested in eliminating this prior restraint at this time.
 

utbagpiper

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Yes it does. Thank you. It is unfortunate that a loaded handgun is unlawful w/o permit OC or CC. It seems to me that Utah is working to remedy this but it is evident that legislators are not interested in eliminating this prior restraint at this time.

Actually, our legislature, or at least a majority of legislators, are interested in eliminating this prior restraint. Permit-free, fully loaded OC and CC passed in 2013 but was vetoed by our governor. His threat of veto killed the bill in the legislature in 2015 and 2016.

We embarrassed him with a loss in Convention this last year. But he got enough votes to advance to a primary which he won easily and then won the general election handily. So we're trying to take a small enough step to avoid another veto or veto threat.

Every State that passes some form of permit free carry helps. This is no longer some crazy pro-gun experiment. It is fairly well proven.

Utah is conservative in the truest sense of the word of prefering to avoid large or radical social change. We've come a long way in the 20 years I've been actively involved (and in the 10 years prior) mostly by making modest changes, building on each other over time.

I'm hoping this is the year to take this modest step.

Charles
 

OC for ME

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Actually, our legislature, or at least a majority of legislators, are interested in eliminating this prior restraint. ... I'm hoping this is the year to take this modest step.

Charles
Every step towards restoring individual liberty is a step in the right direction. I would prefer that prior restraint laws be repealed vs. being nullified via new legislation. Good luck.
 
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