A few Ohio specific legal questions regarding OC'ing

[Kevin Gibbs]

Hello all,

I would like to pose a few legal questions pertaining to Ohio laws regarding open carry.

1. In the state of Ohio, I know we have a duty to inform the officer or officers that we are recording them. If the LEO asks where the camera is, are we obligated to tell them? The reason being, I will be purchasing a pen and/or ball cap mounted camera and if possible, I dont want to have to tell the officer where it is. I have a iPhone 5 but I dont want to have to hold it up during the interogation or whatever its considered.

1A. Are we required to inform the LEO they are being recorded by video AND audio or just video or just audio?

2. What state cases AND federal cases pertain to open carry? As I have been told, some if not most cops are ignorant of open carry laws, so it would be nice to talk legal circles around the LEOs.

3. Am I REQUIRED to show ID when asked?

3A. Is providing ID in my best interest, even if I know I have done nothing wrong and no one says otherwise?

3B. Should I invoke my right to stay silent? Is that in my best interest? To be honest, I don't want to come off as a hard ass but I dont want to be accused of something and risk being arrested.

3B. Should I hand my ID over and then invoke my right to stay silent? Thus, giving the LEO what he wants but not volenteering information?

4. Can anyone recommend a lawyer that is good if not great at firearms related cases that is local to Hamilton or Cincinnati Ohio? Maybe someone you or a friend or relative have dealt with before?

Thank you...

 

[Fallschirjmäger]

1. An individual who is a party to either an in-person conversation or electronic communication, or who has the consent of one of the parties to the communication, can lawfully record it or disclose its contents, unless the person is doing so for the purpose of committing a criminal or tortious act. Ohio Rev. Code Ann. § 2933.52 (West 2012).

Ohio is a single-party consent state, you are one of the parties in the conversation so no other consent is required. What Ohio code requires you to inform an officer that you are recording?

2. Ohio is a traditional open-carry state. The open-carry of firearms by those who legally possess the firearm is a legal activity in Ohio with or without a license.
Cincinatti Police Chief Advises His Staff on OC Legality
PoliceOne.com: Police Arrest Man Who Openly Carried
Which led to - - -
Lawsuit for Open Carry Arrest in Ohio Nets 3.6 Million dollars


3. No law requires you to carry identification, so how can you be required to produce something you're not required to have?
Licenses are different, there is (most likely) a law which says you must produce a license when performing certain licensed acts - e.g. driving a car on public roads.

3A. My personal opinion is "No", just ask Officer Friendly if you can see his state issued license that has his home address on it and see what reaction you get. My reasoning is the same as his.

3B. "Anything you say, can and will be used against you." You can talk yourself into being arrested, but you can't remain silent your way into being arrested unless the officer already believes he has probable cause.

 

[Kevin Gibbs]

So basically, keep my trap shut and don't say a thing other than I'm invoking my 5th amendment right? Or do like in this video...or don't even say that?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1n1BHJs5V5c


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[Kevin Gibbs]

In addition, I was told by a sheriff in Hardin County Ohio that refusing to or not carrying ID is an arrestable offense, I take it he was blowing smoke and playing hardball?


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[JoeSparky]

In addition, I was told by a sheriff in Hardin County Ohio that refusing to or not carrying ID is an arrestable offense, I take it he was blowing smoke and playing hardball?


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Unfortunately, courts have ruled it is permissible for the Leo's to lie in the course of an investigation.
Next, unless the LEO you spoke to is a licensed attorney he is generally prohibited from practicing law.
Finally, even if the LEO you spoke with was an attorney he is not your attorney and I see all sorts of red flags related to him providing you legal advice. Conflict of interest would be one of the least of these red flags.

 

[Kevin Gibbs]

1. An individual who is a party to either an in-person conversation or electronic communication, or who has the consent of one of the parties to the communication, can lawfully record it or disclose its contents, unless the person is doing so for the purpose of committing a criminal or tortious act. Ohio Rev. Code Ann. § 2933.52 (West 2012).

Ohio is a single-party consent state, you are one of the parties in the conversation so no other consent is required. What Ohio code requires you to inform an officer that you are recording?

2. Ohio is a traditional open-carry state. The open-carry of firearms by those who legally possess the firearm is a legal activity in Ohio with or without a license.
Cincinatti Police Chief Advises His Staff on OC Legality
PoliceOne.com: Police Arrest Man Who Openly Carried
Which led to - - -
Lawsuit for Open Carry Arrest in Ohio Nets 3.6 Million dollars



3. No law requires you to carry identification, so how can you be required to produce something you're not required to have?
Licenses are different, there is (most likely) a law which says you must produce a license when performing certain licensed acts - e.g. driving a car on public roads.

3A. My personal opinion is "No", just ask Officer Friendly if you can see his state issued license that has his home address on it and see what reaction you get. My reasoning is the same as his.

3B. "Anything you say, can and will be used against you." You can talk yourself into being arrested, but you can't remain silent your way into being arrested unless the officer already believes he has probable cause.

So, is it safe to assume that even if I am carrying ID, I can refuse to give it up to the LEO? Or would that be a crime for failing to obey a lawful order or something? In regard to informing LEOs that they are being recorded I posed the question on facebook and that was the respose I got.

 

[Fallschirjmäger]

1) Never depend on an officer's assessment of the law when the answer may not serve his purposes. He's not in court, he's not sworn to tell the truth, and he's is under absolutely no obligation to be truthful. The same can be said for FaceBook; unless someone can supply a citation to the law, take any advice with a grain of salt.

2) I can't find a "lawful order" section in the Ohio code. You can be cited for obstruction (which requires willfully hindering, delaying, or obstructing. Mere non-cooperation is not a willful act of obstruction. That concept was proven back in the protest marches of the 70's when protestors would 'go limp' when being arrested and thereby not 'willfully obstruct' their arrest.

3) If you are being arrested or cited, or are a witness to a crime, the police may demand your identity. They cannot demand identity papers as there are no such documents in the United States aside from passports. Your driving license is a license to drive. The courts have ruled that truthfully giving your name and other identifiers is sufficient to identify a person (Hiibel v NV.)
Personally, I would make no answer that confirmed that I was carrying a license once outside my car. (Parenthetically, I don't. My driving license has resided in the sun visor of my car since around 2007. My reasoning is that wherever I might need it, I most likely drove to and my license is within walking distance.

If Officer Friendly insists on seeing it... well, I hope he brought comfortable shoes, sometimes I forget where I parked or what car I was driving that day so we could be wandering around a parking lot for quite a while until I spot which car I came in. Lord help him if I mistakenly think I walked somewhere, it could be a couple miles down the road before I remember that I indeed did walk to the store.

 

[Kevin Gibbs]

1) Never depend on an officer's assessment of the law when the answer may not serve his purposes. He's not in court, he's not sworn to tell the truth, and he's is under absolutely no obligation to be truthful. The same can be said for FaceBook; unless someone can supply a citation to the law, take any advice with a grain of salt.

2) I can't find a "lawful order" section in the Ohio code. You can be cited for obstruction (which requires willfully hindering, delaying, or obstructing. Mere non-cooperation is not a willful act of obstruction. That concept was proven back in the protest marches of the 70's when protestors would 'go limp' when being arrested and thereby not 'willfully obstruct' their arrest.

3) If you are being arrested or cited, or are a witness to a crime, the police may demand your identity. They cannot demand identity papers as there are no such documents in the United States aside from passports. Your driving license is a license to drive. The courts have ruled that truthfully giving your name and other identifiers is sufficient to identify a person (Hiibel v NV.)
Personally, I would make no answer that confirmed that I was carrying a license once outside my car. (Parenthetically, I don't. My driving license has resided in the sun visor of my car since around 2007. My reasoning is that wherever I might need it, I most likely drove to and my license is within walking distance.

If Officer Friendly insists on seeing it... well, I hope he brought comfortable shoes, sometimes I forget where I parked or what car I was driving that day so we could be wandering around a parking lot for quite a while until I spot which car I came in. Lord help him if I mistakenly think I walked somewhere, it could be a couple miles down the road before I remember that I indeed did walk to the store.

Thanks for all the help. I hope I was not to much of a pain in the butt.

 

[BB62]

...4. Can anyone recommend a lawyer that is good if not great at firearms related cases that is local to Hamilton or Cincinnati Ohio?...

Do you have some specific concern?

Are you attempting to get yourself "in trouble"?

Are you already "in trouble"?

 

[Kevin Gibbs]

No not at all. Its just some cops get called out on a "person with a gun call" and automatically assume because someone has a gun, that a crime has been committed. Should a cop decide to unlawfully arrest me for simple open carrying, I don't want to be caught with a public defender. Read this entire thread, there is more than one "Officer Friendly" in this world. I'm just trying to be prepared should someone who happens to be at the same store or the same park or the same concert jump to conclusions. Sort of a "for you information" scenario. But, I think I found what I hopfully wont need in the ads at the top of the page.

 

[MyWifeSaidYes]

Kevin-

Here's my two cents worth of I-am-not-a-lawyer advice.

Ohio's Revised Code can be found at http://codes.ohio.gov.

Review chapters 2911, 2921 and 2923.

R.C. 2911.21 is the Criminal Trespass law. When asked to leave someplace, armed or not, leave immediately. Argue about it later via a phone call or lawyer.

R.C. 2921.29 is the identification law. It only applies IF a LEO suspects you of a crime or of witnessing a felony.

You are NOT required to carry any physical ID on you unless you are operating a motor vehicle (you must have your driver license) or if you are legally conceal carrying a handgun (must have conceal license AND a state ID [like a driver license).

R.C. 2921.31 is what you get charged with when you fail to provide your ID.

Please note that IF the conditions listed in 2921.29 do not apply to you, your lawyer will want to review the phrase "without privilege to do so" in 2921.31.


R.C. 2923 is the chapter that contains Ohio's weapons control laws. I encourage you to read that one top to bottom.

While there is a lot of good information here on OCDO, you may want to check out Ohioans For Concealed Carry at ohioccw.org (yes, they also support open carry). Click on the word 'Discussion' near the top of the page.

The OFCC forum is specific to Ohio, but we do often cross-post between sites.

Buckeye Firearms (buckeyefirearms.org) also has an Ohio-specific forum, but it's very low traffic.


And, as has already been said, there is NO requirement to advise the police that you are recording them.

 

[Kevin Gibbs]

Thank you very much sir.


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[Bigbossman90]

1. In the state of Ohio, I know we have a duty to inform the officer or officers that we are recording them. If the LEO asks where the camera is, are we obligated to tell them? The reason being, I will be purchasing a pen and/or ball cap mounted camera and if possible, I dont want to have to tell the officer where it is. I have a iPhone 5 but I dont want to have to hold it up during the interogation or whatever its considered.

1A. Are we required to inform the LEO they are being recorded by video AND audio or just video or just audio?

2. What state cases AND federal cases pertain to open carry? As I have been told, some if not most cops are ignorant of open carry laws, so it would be nice to talk legal circles around the LEOs.

3. Am I REQUIRED to show ID when asked?

3A. Is providing ID in my best interest, even if I know I have done nothing wrong and no one says otherwise?

3B. Should I invoke my right to stay silent? Is that in my best interest? To be honest, I don't want to come off as a hard ass but I dont want to be accused of something and risk being arrested.

3B. Should I hand my ID over and then invoke my right to stay silent? Thus, giving the LEO what he wants but not volenteering information?

4. Can anyone recommend a lawyer that is good if not great at firearms related cases that is local to Hamilton or Cincinnati Ohio? Maybe someone you or a friend or relative have dealt with before?

I'll try to give my answers to your questions in the order you asked them, keep in mind as well, this is all assuming you're on foot in a public place:

1: There is no such law requiring you to inform of recording. Another comment pointed this out too. I think you're confusing the duty to inform requirement of concealed carrying a firearm, which is true in Ohio. But not recordings, you are the one party that consents to the recording, doesn't matter what they think. And that's really only applicable to other citizens, recording law enforcement is a whole other ball game that has been to the Supreme Court (IIRC).

2: Ohio is a "de facto" legal open carry state. Basically there is no law forbidding it so it is thus legal. The only carry laws in Ohio pertain to concealed carry and transportation of firearms.

3: No you're not required to show ID. You're not even required to have a physical ID with you. Verbal ID is good enough (Name, address, DOB). If the fact you're open carrying is the only reason they ask, you don't have to show (or tell) them anything (although I would suggest you clarify this before actually refusing). If they're responding to a 911 call and give you the "you're causing alarm" BS, you're good. Don't ID. Open carry is not, by itself, probable cause or reasonable suspicion of ANY crime.

3A: It depends on the situation. If they DEMAND your ID, failure to do so will likely lead to arrest. However if said arrest is unlawful, you likely have a strong suit on your hands.

3B: Yes, the only thing you have to say, in certain circumstances, is to identify yourself.

Additionally:

When or when not to self ID is tricky. If open carry is the only reason they stop you, all you should say is "Am I free to go?" if no, ask "Why am I being detained?'' If they say you're not being detained, say "Have a nice day then." and walk away. If they stop you, ask what crime they suspect you of committing. If they don't give you a solid answer, stop talking.

I say all this because they have to have a legitimate reason to stop and question or ID you. If this is not applicable, then the detention is unlawful and you should file a complaint and maybe even a lawsuit.

Also, there are all kinds of videos on youtube of people being stopped by police, even open carriers, and not saying a damn thing.

Keep this in mind as well, if the cop had probable cause to arrest you for something, s/he does not have to tell you what that is. If they want to arrest you, they will.

This video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfdEbe7e9GE is a good example of what to do (sorry if the link doesn't work, just copy/paste if so). This guy talks alot, but the premise is there.

Edit to add: I am not a lawyer and this advice should not be taken as legal advice. I recommend you talk to a lawyer first.