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Any places in Ohio I can OC but not CC legally

rottman43055

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Sep 9, 2008
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Ohio, ,
I used to be up on the laws for many years but burnt out so I need to catch up so I was wondering if there are places I can open carry legally but not legally conceal carry. Where does my "right" trump my "privilege" ?
 

JustaShooter

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Don't know about the right trumping the privilege, but yes, there are places in Ohio where you can legally openly carry that you cannot legally carry concealed with a license. Two that I know of are:

- College and university property
- Churches and other houses of worship (though a church can grant permission to carry concealed)

Also, there are those that assert you can legally openly carry into government facilities in Ohio (other than courthouses and buildings that contain courtrooms as they are specifically prohibited under Ohio law). However, even though there are no specific prohibitions against open carry into those government facilities in Ohio law, those facilities *are* required to post no-guns signage. As far as I am aware, no one has ever tested the ability to legally carry openly into those places. I keep waiting for someone with more time & money than I have to test it and establish the precedent...
 

Werz

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Also, there are those that assert you can legally openly carry into government facilities in Ohio (other than courthouses and buildings that contain courtrooms as they are specifically prohibited under Ohio law). However, even though there are no specific prohibitions against open carry into those government facilities in Ohio law, those facilities *are* required to post no-guns signage.

And that R.C. 2923.1212 signage creates the condition precedent for a Criminal Trespass charge. See R.C. 2911.21(A)(4).
 

color of law

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And that R.C. 2923.1212 signage creates the condition precedent for a Criminal Trespass charge. See R.C. 2911.21(A)(4).
There you go again. You have no law or case law that supports your contention.

Unless the law specifically delineates that a firearm openly carried cannot be carried in the public area of a Ohio government building then a trespass charge will fail. Both Green Township and the City of Vandalia law directors have said they cannot find any law or case law that would prohibit open carry in the public areas of Ohio government buildings.

BB62 and myself have open carried in the public areas of state government buildings without issue, even in police presence.

And your use of the term “condition precedent” being used in civil contract law proves that you agree that the sign wordage used in R.C. 2923.1212 only applies to conceal carry. Because licensing bestows privilege to do some particular act or series of acts that would otherwise be illegal. Open carry in not a privilege, it's a right.
 

Werz

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And that R.C. 2923.1212 signage creates the condition precedent for a Criminal Trespass charge. See R.C. 2911.21(A)(4).

There you go again. You have no law or case law that supports your contention.
There will be no case law until someone is arrested and convicted, and the case is appealed.

Unless the law specifically delineates that a firearm openly carried cannot be carried in the public area of a Ohio government building then a trespass charge will fail. Both Green Township and the City of Vandalia law directors have said they cannot find any law or case law that would prohibit open carry in the public areas of Ohio government buildings.
R.C. 2923.1212 designates the wording of the signage. That wording does not specify open carry or concealed; in fact, it includes all deadly weapons, not just firearms. R.C. 2911.21 designates the elements of Criminal Trespass, which includes failure or refusal to obey signage. Many violations of law rely on the combination of two statutes, including the violation for carrying a firearm, openly or concealed, on posted private property [R.C. 2923.126(C)(3)(a) and 2911.21(A)(4)], and those specifics satisfy R.C. 9.68. The fact that a few law directors cannot put that together does not make it lawful.

And before you prattle on about how the title of R.C. 2923.1212 refers to "concealed," let's mention (again) that the title is added by the code service, not the legislature. That's easily recognized by anyone who actually reads the bills enacted by both houses of the legislature and signed by the governor. Those titles are not in the actual enactments. Knowing those things are the difference between a license attorney at law and an amateur researcher.

BB62 and myself have open carried in the public areas of state government buildings without issue, even in police presence.
Name the buildings. Many governmental facilities, like township garages, unilaterally allow open carry of their own volition, and we have advised them that they can do that. That does not mean they cannot enforce a violation of the signage if they choose to do so. When you and BB62 can show us a video of the two of you walking through Cincinnati City Hall (which contains no school or courthouse), openly carrying firearms in police presence, then I'll give credence to your statement.

And your use of the term “condition precedent” being used in civil contract law proves that you agree that the sign wordage used in R.C. 2923.1212 only applies to conceal carry. Because licensing bestows privilege to do some particular act or series of acts that would otherwise be illegal. Open carry in not a privilege, it's a right.
This is the type of circular non-sequitur that is usually limited to prison inmate pleadings. I have already addressed the legitimate legal issues. When you to decide to establish that you really believe what you write, post that video from Cincinnati City Hall. When you want others to believe you on the law, you need to establish what will happen to them under any like circumstance, not what you can get away with under special circumstances.
 

BB62

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There will be no case law until someone is arrested and convicted, and the case is appealed.


R.C. 2923.1212 designates the wording of the signage. That wording does not specify open carry or concealed; in fact, it includes all deadly weapons, not just firearms. R.C. 2911.21 designates the elements of Criminal Trespass, which includes failure or refusal to obey signage. Many violations of law rely on the combination of two statutes, including the violation for carrying a firearm, openly or concealed, on posted private property [R.C. 2923.126(C)(3)(a) and 2911.21(A)(4)], and those specifics satisfy R.C. 9.68. The fact that a few law directors cannot put that together does not make it lawful. ...
I see you two are at it again!

Okay, let me ask a question...

Although the signage language is substantially given, isn't it true that the particulars of a sign (or the sign itself) are only valid when those particulars have the law behind them? The sign says "unless otherwise authorized by law", and the only prohibition in the law refers specifically to concealed carry - so how is it that the sign can purport to prohibit OPEN carry when there is no law doing so?
 

Werz

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Northeast Ohio
Although the signage language is substantially given, isn't it true that the particulars of a sign (or the sign itself) are only valid when those particulars have the law behind them? The sign says "unless otherwise authorized by law", and the only prohibition in the law refers specifically to concealed carry - so how is it that the sign can purport to prohibit OPEN carry when there is no law doing so?
The full quote is "Unless otherwise authorized by law, pursuant to the Ohio Revised Code ..." That means specific, statutory authorization, as opposed to the permissive approval of R.C. 9.68. Many private gunbuster signs say the same thing, so you are free to test that legal theory in many places. But I still like the idea of Cincinnati City Hall.
 

BB62

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The full quote is "Unless otherwise authorized by law, pursuant to the Ohio Revised Code ..." That means specific, statutory authorization, as opposed to the permissive approval of R.C. 9.68. Many private gunbuster signs say the same thing, so you are free to test that legal theory in many places. But I still like the idea of Cincinnati City Hall.
Okay, fair enough, but you didn't respond to the second part of my question...

Don't signs/their contents have to have law behind them - and there is no law that I'm aware of prohibiting OPEN carry in places where the signs we are talking about are posted.

IOW - I don't see how a sign can create a prohibition without the law behind it, and I don't see the suggested text of a sign as "the law".
 
Last edited:

Werz

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IOW - I don't see how a sign can create a prohibition without the law behind it, and I don't see the suggested text of a sign as "the law".

The sign is not the law. Criminal Trespass under R.C. 2911.21 is the law. This sign is the statutorily prescribed notice. Other examples:

after_hours.jpgemployees_only.jpgno_shirt_no_shoes.jpgprivate_property.jpg

Prosecution is discretionary. You roll the dice.
 

rottman43055

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Sep 9, 2008
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Ohio, ,
Thank you for the replies.

I'm not around colleges often, but was wondering, does that simply apply to the grounds, or building & also assuming we are talking about public and not private.

I'm definitely going to have to just start cruising the forums again and get myself back up to speed.
 

JustaShooter

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NE Ohio
I'm not around colleges often, but was wondering, does that simply apply to the grounds, or building & also assuming we are talking about public and not private.

Grounds only, unless you are willing to find out whether a judge / jury agrees with Werz or color of law...
 

Cerberus

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The sign is not the law. Criminal Trespass under R.C. 2911.21 is the law. This sign is the statutorily prescribed notice. Other examples:

Prosecution is discretionary. You roll the dice.

This strikes at the heart of my problem with the "Criminal Justice" (and they certainly have that name right) system.
"Law" is, or should be, for it to be legitimate, that which proscribes an act that is unlawful for all time and all people, because it violates another’s rights to life or property. When some action is sanctioned, or a real human being punished for that action, merely at the whim of some petty thug in a government costume, it is not law, it is TYRANNY, and a violation of law!
 

BB62

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...R.C. 2923.1212 designates the wording of the signage. That wording does not specify open carry or concealed; in fact, it includes all deadly weapons, not just firearms. R.C. 2911.21 designates the elements of Criminal Trespass, which includes failure or refusal to obey signage. Many violations of law rely on the combination of two statutes, including the violation for carrying a firearm, openly or concealed, on posted private property [R.C. 2923.126(C)(3)(a) and 2911.21(A)(4)], and those specifics satisfy R.C. 9.68. The fact that a few law directors cannot put that together does not make it lawful. ...
There you go again mixing public and private, and asserting that "combining" statutes is what makes a violation of law.

The fact is that in order for signage on private property to be valid, it has to have the law behind it - and so it is with public property. It remains the case that there is no law behind an asserted open carry prohibition in public buildings.
 

color of law

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2923.1212(A) The following persons, boards, and entities, or designees, shall post in the following locations a sign that contains a statement in substantially the following form: "Unless otherwise authorized by law, pursuant to the Ohio Revised Code, no person shall knowingly possess, have under the person's control, convey, or attempt to convey a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance onto these premises.":

2923.1212(A)(9) The officer of this state or of a political subdivision of this state, or the officer's designee, who has charge of a building that is a government facility of this state or the political subdivision of this state, as defined in section 2923.126 of the Revised Code, and that is not a building that is used primarily as a shelter, restroom, parking facility for motor vehicles, or rest facility and is not a courthouse or other building or structure in which a courtroom is located that is subject to division (B)(3) of that section.
So, under 2912.1212 a sign is to be posted on a building that is a government facility as defined in 2923.126.

2923.126(B) A valid concealed handgun license does not authorize the licensee to carry a concealed handgun in any manner prohibited under division (B) of section 2923.12 of the Revised Code or in any manner prohibited under section 2923.16 of the Revised Code. A valid license does not authorize the licensee to carry a concealed handgun into any of the following places:
2923.126(B)(7) Any building that is a government facility of this state or a political subdivision of this state and that is not a building that is used primarily as a shelter, restroom, parking facility for motor vehicles, or rest facility and is not a courthouse or other building or structure in which a courtroom is located that is subject to division (B)(3) of this section, unless the governing body with authority over the building has enacted a statute, ordinance, or policy that permits a licensee to carry a concealed handgun into the building;
2923.126 defines a building that is a government facility under (B)(7); the new law added that the governing body can allow conceal carry.

The new section (7) of 29213.126(B) was the old section (9) and what is underlined was added to the new law.

Ohio law only prohibits open carry in courthouses, jails, schools, bars and state run mental hospitals, period. And conceal carry is regulated as to where you can and cannot carry.

As I have clearly pointed out the posted sign as described in 2923.1212 applies to conceal carry licensees, not open carriers. Open carry in the public areas of buildings that are government facilities is perfectly legal.

You cannot trespass on public property open to the public, period, under the stars or in a building.
 

Animalou812

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So, under 2912.1212 a sign is to be posted on a building that is a government facility as defined in 2923.126.


2923.126 defines a building that is a government facility under (B)(7); the new law added that the governing body can allow conceal carry.

The new section (7) of 29213.126(B) was the old section (9) and what is underlined was added to the new law.

Ohio law only prohibits open carry in courthouses, jails, schools, bars and state run mental hospitals, period. And conceal carry is regulated as to where you can and cannot carry.

As I have clearly pointed out the posted sign as described in 2923.1212 applies to conceal carry licensees, not open carriers. Open carry in the public areas of buildings that are government facilities is perfectly legal.

You cannot trespass on public property open to the public, period, under the stars or in a building.

So open carry is legal at gun shows when they are held at a building at a county fairgrounds?


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idodishez

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May 27, 2014
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Don't know about the right trumping the privilege, but yes, there are places in Ohio where you can legally openly carry that you cannot legally carry concealed with a license. Two that I know of are:

- College and university property
- Churches and other houses of worship (though a church can grant permission to carry concealed)

Also, there are those that assert you can legally openly carry into government facilities in Ohio (other than courthouses and buildings that contain courtrooms as they are specifically prohibited under Ohio law). However, even though there are no specific prohibitions against open carry into those government facilities in Ohio law, those facilities *are* required to post no-guns signage. As far as I am aware, no one has ever tested the ability to legally carry openly into those places. I keep waiting for someone with more time & money than I have to test it and establish the precedent...

So you're saying I can OC at my church even though I'm recently informed it's
a federal offense to CC there?


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