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Booted from Cottonwood Mall

BadLandsDillon

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Not sure why you consider it stupid - the mall is private property and no one is forcing anyone to shop there.

I know some very good and knowledgeable private security people. One such was a retired major from a state agency who after he retired was hired to lead mall security for a huge eastern shopping mall. Well educated and articulate, he made dealing with his people a pleasure.

Oh, and welcome to OCDO :)

Thanks for the kind welcome, Sir.

What is stupid is his behavior towards the OP on the whole issue. I have been shopping at cottonwood for several years now and have personally seen security guards there harass people with their segway authority in the same manner.

On another note, I have several friends involved in private security and would get into the job sector myself if it weren't for my extremely poor health at this time as well as my service and life induced mental and physical disabilities.

Regards.
-Dillon :)
 

AH.74

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This is why we need to contact our legislators, and get them to pass a law requiring businesses that are open to the public, are also open to anyone who is a lawful CCW or OC'r, just like they require businesses to have handicapped access. Its the same concept. If you can require handicapped access, then lawful citizens should have that same access with their guns.

Somehow I missed this before.

So you're in favor of the government telling people what they should be able to do and not do in their own private establishments when it comes to the right to disallow firearms?

You are sounding like a zealot. This is not what we need.
 
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Grapeshot

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This is why we need to contact our legislators, and get them to pass a law requiring businesses that are open to the public, are also open to anyone who is a lawful CCW or OC'r, just like they require businesses to have handicapped access. Its the same concept. If you can require handicapped access, then lawful citizens should have that same access with their guns.

Since carrying a gun neither qualifies one for inclusion under the Americans with Disabilities Act nor any other special protected status what argument will you use to enforce your choice on a retailer that is a private property owner?

Glance through this and see if you can find something useful:
https://adata.org/lawhandbook
 
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cirrusly

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After reading this post, I decided to see what the issue with open/concealed carrying is.

On Friday, June 7th, I open carried in the CottonWood Mall with my son. Entering through Dillard's, I did NOT see a code of conduct or any reference to firearms displayed. From Dillard's I went to the Simon Mall kiosk and asked where in their code of conduct is firearms listed and where can a copy be found. The lady behind the counter was not sure so she radioed for security to come over. Once the security guards came over (there were two of them), they offered to show me where the code of conduct lists are placed. During the whole encounter, the security guards were friendly and polite. After seeing the code of conduct, I notified them that I will make my intended purchase and then drop my weapon off at my car. This was no problem to them, so I continued on my way.

When I returned to the mall, I walked to all of the entrances and I believe that I have found the break-in-the-chain:
  • Code of conducts are displayed on ALL mall entrances
  • However, code of conducts are NOT displayed at store entrances (JC Penny, Dillard's, Sears, Macy's...etc).

After discovering that they are not displayed, I went back and informed the security guards of what I found. They acknowledged that it was an issue. According to them, "This issue causes at least one person a day to open carry in the mall."
As of now, the problem is found, but what can be done about it? I went to Dillard's and talked to their store manager, Michael Giese. He told me that he didn't mind if people open/conceal carried in his store because they follow New Mexico laws. "If you can legally do it here, then we can't stop you. Dillard's goes off the law-of-the-land", said Giese. So far so good. Now to deal with CottonWood Mall.

Inside of the mall, near the Sears entrance is a Simon Mall office. In there I met and talked with Jeremy Strife, the CottonWood Mall property manager. During our talk, I informed him that the store entrances do NOT display a code of conduct which is one of the issues that open/conceal carry individuals have. Also that the stores that have their own entrances follow New Mexico laws and seem to think that they do not follow Simon Mall rules and regulations. Apparently, Strife was unaware of both issues and told me that he will be bringing these up at their next store manager's meeting the following day. Mr. Strife is an avid gun shooter and stated that, "If it was up to me, I would reform those rules, but since they are Simon mall's rules, I can't." He also informed me that he's brought up the firearm issue with the Simon Mall board of directors with no luck in swaying their regulations.

More to come on the outcome of code of conduct signs being posted at EVERY entrance regardless of mall or store entrance.

Thanks,
CombatMedic68w :banana:


Code of Conduct #6 covers firearms. My 1 year old son got ahold of the code of conduct so it might be a little messy hehe.
View attachment 10514View attachment 10515
Why are you assisting businesses in identifying where and how they should post Criminal Safe Zone signs? And to such an elaborate extent?

Ridiculous. I smell a troll.
 

xd shooter

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Since carrying a gun neither qualifies one for inclusion under the Americans with Disabilities Act nor any other special protected status what argument will you use to enforce your choice on a retailer that is a private property owner?

I think we should look at this.

As a retailer, as a business, store owner, however you want to describe it, there are already certain things the government requires you to do on your private property. This is the price/cost of doing business.

I agree with your house/your rules, but in the case of having a business where you are inviting the public in, to come and go as a course of conducting business is very much different than your private home.

As such, I think the business should have 2 options, to guarantee your safety while you are in their establishment with metal detectors or other form of ensuring there are no guns or knives, etc elsewhere in the establishment (therefore able to post a no guns sign) or having no right to take away your right of self defense.

The business has taken the option of inviting you in to their property, they should not then be able to remove your ability to defend yourself. Yes, you have every right to NOT go into that store, they also have every right to NOT invite the public in to their private property. By doing so, they have to give up certain private property rights, following other well established rules and regs for operating a business.

As an FYI, I own and operate a business, and obviously have no issue with customers carrying in my shop.

Thoughts?
 

wabbit

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briar patch, NM
Why are you assisting businesses in identifying where and how they should post Criminal Safe Zone signs? And to such an elaborate extent?

Ridiculous. I smell a troll.

why on earth are you posting to a thread started 2 years ago.

wabbit
 

cirrusly

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Messages
291
Location
North Dakota
I think we should look at this.

As a retailer, as a business, store owner, however you want to describe it, there are already certain things the government requires you to do on your private property. This is the price/cost of doing business.

I agree with your house/your rules, but in the case of having a business where you are inviting the public in, to come and go as a course of conducting business is very much different than your private home.

As such, I think the business should have 2 options, to guarantee your safety while you are in their establishment with metal detectors or other form of ensuring there are no guns or knives, etc elsewhere in the establishment (therefore able to post a no guns sign) or having no right to take away your right of self defense.

The business has taken the option of inviting you in to their property, they should not then be able to remove your ability to defend yourself. Yes, you have every right to NOT go into that store, they also have every right to NOT invite the public in to their private property. By doing so, they have to give up certain private property rights, following other well established rules and regs for operating a business.

As an FYI, I own and operate a business, and obviously have no issue with customers carrying in my shop.

Thoughts?

There's definitely two sides to it: Do you really want legislation to dictating how private establishments are to "control" the safety of their patrons?

Conversely, I'd probably support legislation that forced anti-2A businesses to waste their money on unarmed security guards if they opt to prohibit firearms for patrons. I'd support a complicated equation that would say 1 security guard must be on-duty per every 30 people on the premises at any given time. The anti establishments would be financially pinched into permitting law abiding citizens to carry.
 
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wabbit

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Plenty of threads on OCDO span several years.

of that i'm sure, but your boredom from va is showing in the land time forgot...

and you tie getting kicked out of cottonwood to oh- bam -care...

this is like wheel of fortune and i am asking if there is a "T" to complete the rest of the word of xroll....

wabbit
 
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cirrusly

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North Dakota
of that i'm sure, but your boredom from va is showing in the land time forgot...

and you tie getting kicked out of cottonwood to oh- bam -care...

this is like wheel of fortune and i am asking if there is a "T" to complete the rest of the word of xroll....

wabbit

NoVA (bordering DC) is unanimously one of the most happening areas of the US.

What I don't understand is why you are hell bent on monitoring the time stamps of my posts and concerned that ancillary portions of their contents meticulously correspond to the thread.... Strange in the least. I'm done responding to you.
 

Grapeshot

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of that i'm sure, but your boredom from va is showing in the land time forgot...

and you tie getting kicked out of cottonwood to oh- bam -care...

this is like wheel of fortune and i am asking if there is a "T" to complete the rest of the word of xroll....

wabbit
Is there a point to being contemptuous?
 

xd shooter

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There's already so much regulation, rules, requirements when running a business, how about some designed to protect our rights?

A person who invites the public onto their property is required to have proper exits, unlocked, fire extinguishers, has to follow OSHA regs, properly lighted, etc, etc, etc. Things that are NOT required in your private home.

So the government already makes distinctions between private property (your home) and private property (your business), simply due to the fact that you are inviting the public onto your property (business).

I would imagine that you could even ban "protected citizens" from your private property (home), but don't dare to do so from your business. So again, obviously, there is a distinction between the 2 private properties.

I guess I'm just proletyzing here, but private property doesn't seem as sacrosanct as some want to believe, at least not as far as businesses are concerned.
 

NMOCr

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We should be pushing this as a safety issue (right to carry), just like they push the disabilities act through upon business. If they have to admit someone in a wheelchair, and make "reasonable accommodations", then they can do the same for lawful open carry.
 

Desert Dweller

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Somehow I missed this before.

So you're in favor of the government telling people what they should be able to do and not do in their own private establishments when it comes to the right to disallow firearms?

You are sounding like a zealot. This is not what we need.
The government tells me that if I own a private business, I still can't allow smoking, so by that note, how can a private property owner disobey NM state law and not allow CC or OC? Not trolling, just curious what your take on that is? Here in Otero County, a restaurant owner was hammered in court because he defied the ban on smoking in a public place, even if it was privately owned. Seems to me that the government wants to have their cake, and eat it too.
 

AH.74

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The government tells me that if I own a private business, I still can't allow smoking, so by that note, how can a private property owner disobey NM state law and not allow CC or OC? Not trolling, just curious what your take on that is? Here in Otero County, a restaurant owner was hammered in court because he defied the ban on smoking in a public place, even if it was privately owned. Seems to me that the government wants to have their cake, and eat it too.

IMO it's really somewhat simple- smoking in public was made to be against the law. CC and OC "denial" by private property owners has not been made against the law- private property owners are not disobeying state law by not allowing people to carry into/onto their property.
 

Desert Dweller

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But isn't it legal to carry in public? If I open my place to the public, doesn't it become a "public" place? It just seems like a double standard. Because if being open to the public is the qualifier here, then neither can be considered private property.
 

Grapeshot

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But isn't it legal to carry in public? If I open my place to the public, doesn't it become a "public" place? It just seems like a double standard. Because if being open to the public is the qualifier here, then neither can be considered private property.
No it does not become public - public generally means owned by state or local government.

NMSA 29–19–12; NMSA 30–14–6 Property owners may prohibit the carrying of firearms onto property they lawfully possess by posting signage or verbally notifying persons upon entering the property. Violating these "gun-free" establishments is a 4th-degree felony punishable by up to 18 months imprisonment and/or a fine of up to $5,000.

I will defer to others more cognizant of NM law for any changes/updates.
 

AH.74

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No it does not become public - public generally means owned by state or local government.

Agreed. Just because a private store owner invites people into his store (and that's what it is considered IIRC), the private ownership does not change.

NMSA 29–19–12; NMSA 30–14–6 Property owners may prohibit the carrying of firearms onto property they lawfully possess by posting signage or verbally notifying persons upon entering the property. Violating these "gun-free" establishments is a 4th-degree felony punishable by up to 18 months imprisonment and/or a fine of up to $5,000.

I will defer to others more cognizant of NM law for any changes/updates.

Criminal trespass is a misdemeanor (30-14-1; 30-14.1.1); I think you may have referred to violating entry into alcohol establishments- those are the only felonies I can think of (other than entry into federal buildings and courts).
 

Desert Dweller

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So then how do they ban smoking on private property? I understand what you are saying, just still seems to me that it is a double standard. I am not a smoker, but I do carry.
 

Grapeshot

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