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Criminals Target OC'ers

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b0neZ

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Feb 15, 2012
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Oh we are in Afghanistan now? Listen my friend, I've been there done that got the T-shirt.

This isn't a combat zone. There are now tangos to elminate. There is no more ambushing whether near or far or initiated by us or them.

This country is free. So that means people are free to carry however whenever whatever (in states its legal). That's why you deployed (if you deployed). Well that's why I did anyways.

Your not "saving" society from anything or anyone by coming here and saying OC is no good.

You are clearly free to state that opinion until the moderators no longer want to deal with it. Then they are free to tell you to kick rocks. And the residents here are free to disagree with you.



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Primus,

I do agree with you on this, except for one thing: the bolded word in your post.

Hopefully you meant 'no'... :p
 

g21sfpistol

Banned
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Apr 21, 2013
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255
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iowa
Oh we are in Afghanistan now? Listen my friend, I've been there done that got the T-shirt.

This isn't a combat zone. There are now tangos to elminate. There is no more ambushing whether near or far or initiated by us or them.

This country is free. So that means people are free to carry however whenever whatever (in states its legal). That's why you deployed (if you deployed). Well that's why I did anyways.

Your not "saving" society from anything or anyone by coming here and saying OC is no good.

You are clearly free to state that opinion until the moderators no longer want to deal with it. Then they are free to tell you to kick rocks. And the residents here are free to disagree with you.



Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

you can use idpa for your example and ill use the sandbox for mine. dont put words in my mouth by saying i think this is a combat zone. its no where near it. idpa is nothing like a SD situation. "been there got the t-shirt" realized how stupid it was and never went back. funny how you have this nice freedom speech followed up by "if we disagree with you we are kicking you off" im pretty sure the public can see whats on here so is it really that private? but sure they can kick me off. whatever. "what, are we in germany in 1938?"

yes i deployed. did you ever leave the wire? i got one bullet hole, shrapnel in my leg, and a limp to prove what i did.
 
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Primus

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Oct 24, 2013
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Primus,

I do agree with you on this, except for one thing: the bolded word in your post.

Hopefully you meant 'no'... :p

Great catch. You are correct sir. Negative on the tangos. Unless you count the guy in line who takes the last chocolate frosted donut. He's a tango.

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Primus

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you can use idpa for your example and ill use the sandbox for mine. dont put words in my mouth by saying i think this is a combat zone. its no where near it. idpa is nothing like a SD situation. "been there got the t-shirt" realized how stupid it was and never went back. funny how you have this nice freedom speech followed up by "if we disagree with you we are kicking you off" im pretty sure the public can see whats on here so is it really that private? but sure they can kick me off. whatever. "what, are we in germany in 1938?"

yes i deployed. did you ever leave the wire? i got two bullet holes, shrapnel in my leg, and a limp to prove what i did.

Ok.... I'll use IDPA.. which is specifically designed to simulate real world scenarios that you mag encounter through out the day or night. Such as obstacles, shoot no shoot targets, mock bedrooms or kitchens, shooting and moving to simulate multiple targets, reloads on the move, utilizing cover and concealment. Actually garments/holsters you wear going to say.. wall mart.

You can use the sand box. Where you drive in a MRAP or an up armored humvee and wear full battle rattle. Maybe you dismount with your squad and now you have at least one saw and everyone with rifles. You then either do a presence patrol or move to contact maybe. Maybe you boot a few doors in. A little zip tie action. Oh... and you probably didn't even have a PISTOL unless you were a squad leader or above. The it was carried on your IBA or your plate carrier.

Hhhmmmmm anyone see which one might be a bit better for training for living in the united states?

And far as all your wounds and war stories, you can save it. I'm not impressed. Your preaching to the wrong guy. If you want to meet at the local V we can have a pitcher and talk shop. Its irrelevant to this forum and none of it applies to what anyone here is talking about.

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FreeInAZ

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2012
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Secret Bunker
If CC is such a faster draw why do the police & military (often using the same or similar equipment) - all have their forces that carry a sidearm do so openly? You telling me they want their members to be slow on the draw? :confused:
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
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11,188
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Fairfax County, Virginia
CC helps the general populace more than OC would. id rather it benefit other people as well.

Whatever deterrent effect CC might have is dependent upon the frequency with which it is practiced.

Imagine that you have some level of deterrence caused by some proportion of the population carrying concealed. Now imagine that that population suddenly began open carrying.

Does the deterrent effect increase, or decrease?

I think you're full of it.
 
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Grapeshot

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Valhalla
i wrote that just to get people to go out and buy new guns. i believe i tried to state what you just stated in one of the 3 closed down threads i posted on. it was basically by passed by nonsence. im glad you see through the bs. coming from combat expericene, i do not want to bank on my "enemy" aka bad guy (so i dont get labled a killer again). so having that train of thought, "the gun is a crime deterrent," leaves you at a disadvantage already. BY the same token with the element of surpise argument with CCers, i wouldnt bank on the fact that you would always surprise your attacker and he would surrender. more often than not the "surprise" is going to work more than the "deterrent." the gun has to be seen in order for the deterrent to work.

i would suggest chrome plating all your OC guns and attach red flags to them that have pictures of guns on it.

Sorry, but the only sense you are making is nonsense - if the gun isn't seen, that is no disadvantage.

Not always does the gun have to be seen to work - sometimes being heard or felt works too. The object being to stop the threat/attack.
 

color of law

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
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5,937
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Brain cells wasted on what?

Up in down, down is up. Black is white, white is black.

What worked today failed the day before.

Every situation is the same except for the differences that set them apart.
 
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WalkingWolf

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North Carolina
I am not sure g21sfpistol is talking about a deterrent effect of concealed carry, which is why I would like to hear his reasoning. Many concealed carry advocates believe that they will do society as a whole a benefit by using their firearm to eliminate a criminal off the face of the earth if they are given the opportunity to. They claim that if the criminal is deterred by the openly carried firearm, they will move on to another victim - and, thus, the actions of the concealed carrier benefits society as a whole, whereas the deterrent caused by open carry would only benefit the single person not attacked.
Wellll, can't speak for others but I really don't care if the criminal moves on. It is not my responsibility to be a hero, and go through the fecal matter that George Zimmerman did.

I have no desire to shoot anyone, or be a hero, or anything other than a LAC minding my own business.
 
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Grapeshot

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He's back trying to disprove a myth with no logic or facts to back it up other than his zealot like beliefs?
Then you know something that I don't know = what his beliefs are. So far he has done little but look very much like a provocateur w/o anything other than playing the same loop - that CC is better and faster that OC.
 
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MAC702

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
6,331
Location
Nevada
All the beat cops on TV when we grew up were in uniform with an exposed handgun.

The ubercool detectives were in plainclothes and concealing.

So, obviously, CC is better than OC.
 
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DaveT319

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2014
Messages
274
Location
Eugene, OR
ill draw just as fast or faster than someone with a OC holster.

No reasonable person could say this and be serious. There is absolutely no way that someone could be faster drawing from concealment than from an exposed holster. Not unless you are drawing from a Level 3 or 4 OC holster compared to an open-front shirt concealing a passive retention holster. Then, yes, the CC might be faster. But there's no way a tucked in shirt over your gun is going to be faster than my thumb-snap holster. It's impossible. And the same "fumbling to disengage the retention" that you point to in another post also applies to YOU fumbling with your draw from concealment, and any training that you can do to minimize that can also be done by an OCer.

Let me spell this out in detail: say you're OCing, and you are held up. Hands are up, arms at shoulder height, elbows bent at 90 degrees. You go for your gun. Your draw hand goes straight to the gun, disengages the retention, and pulls the weapon.

Now the same scenario as a CCer. We'll use the most common CC method: large t-shirt draped over your gun. Same starting position. You go for your gun. Your weak hand has to go toward your gun just before your draw hand does, because it must pull the shirt out of the way before your draw hand can do anything. You must lift the t-shirt clear of the gun, and then make your draw.

Now, you should be able to see that two actions requiring both hands has to physically be slower than just being able to use one hand. It's simple logic. Plus, notice the advantage to OC: while your draw hand is going for the gun, your weak hand is free to be able to push away the attacker, or possibly deflect any weapon that he has. Can't do that when CC, unless you are using an open-front garment for concealment. But in the scenario I described, using the most common method of concealment, you can't.

Now, of course, you can conceal in a variety of ways. But each one will require a different method and technique to break concealment. With OC, it is the same EVERY TIME, no matter what you are wearing, because the gun is ALWAYS exposed and easily accessed.

If after all that, you still believe CC is as fast or FASTER to draw from than OC... well, I don't know where we can go from there, because you are not basing that assertion on logic or reality.
 

DaveT319

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this is why i asked the question of OCing in the winter. or did i forget to type it? ok who OC in the winter? do you have a coat on over your gun?

You do understand that if you have a coat over your gun, you are no longer OCing but instead CCing, right? So, in winter, no, us OCers do not have a coat on over our gun.
 

marshaul

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Fairfax County, Virginia
You do understand that if you have a coat over your gun, you are no longer OCing but instead CCing, right? So, in winter, no, us OCers do not have a coat on over our gun.

Yup. These days I just tuck whatever jacket I'm wearing behind my gun. NBD.

The original claim was as to the "consistency" of the draw. Well, there's simply no way that adding steps, such as having to move clothing, can make a process more reliable. Each step is a possible failure point.

Retention holsters are specifically designed to be fast. All of the models I've used have retention mechanisms which may be disabled as part of the draw stroke. These days I've become comfortable with a thumb break (although it does not provide the best possible retention), because it's impossible to screw up, and it doesn't conceivably add any time to the draw stroke.

Actually, glock21fspistol has it 100% backwards. With CC, a change in the seasons means a change in the numbers of layers of clothing, which means a slight variation in the draw stroke. With OC, my gun is always in exactly the same place, with exactly the same draw stroke, any season of the year.

There's no way that CC can compete with the consistency and speed of an OCed retention holster. The best you can say for CC is the "element of surprise" – because, you know, that's a thing when a someone has a gun stuck in your face.
 
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Grapeshot

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OH! OH! OH! Good point! You are exactly right! Here's the evidence... (and with latex gloves on no less!):

[video=youtube;hA-xIssgT-o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA-xIssgT-o[/video]
Oh, oh!

Our "hero' in that clip drops his mag and racks the slide (clearing the chamber) after shooting the BG. He is now unloaded with the BG on the ground with his gun still in his hand..........and he may still be alive and able to return fire.

"Hero"s tactics/training leaves a lot to be desired.
 

marshaul

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Oh, oh!

Our "hero' in that clip drops his mag and racks the slide (clearing the chamber) after shooting the BG. He is now unloaded with the BG on the ground with his gun still in his hand..........and he may still be alive and able to return fire.

"Hero"s tactics/training leaves a lot to be desired.

You have the roles reversed. In that scene, Jim Zubiena's character is a hit man, and the guy he shoots is presumably a good guy citizen. He leaves his gun behind because it's now a murder weapon. He unloads it, because why leave a loaded gun behind you?
 
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WalkingWolf

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You have the roles reversed. In that scene, Jim Zubiena's character is a hit man, and the guy he shoots is presumably a good guy citizen. He leaves his gun behind because it's now evidence. He unloads it, because why leave a loaded gun behind you?

That's the way I remember it. Hold it a minute, you are old enough to remember MV scenes?
 
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