Excuse me, Sir. Did you know your hammer's not back?Details, details, details.......
Pictures, pictures, pictures.......
Basicblack usually requires the wearing white pearls.
I bet not.......
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Dayton public transit (RTA) has a problem with **lawfully carried firearms**
- Thread starter BB62
- Start date
BB62
Accomplished Advocate
Oct 13 records request **FOLLOWUP**
At 3:28 PM this afternoon I sent a note to Mr. Donaghy, RTA CEO, regarding a records request I made on Oct. 13.
The Oct 13 records request (as was the note today) was copied to the secretary of Dayton's Chief of Police, the Montgomery County Sheriff, the head of Dayton's Law Department and her subordinate, a Montgomery County prosecutor, the three Montgomery County Commissioners, and Kelly May - the reporter from Dayton channel 22/45.
Here's what I sent today:
Mr. Donaghy,
It’s been more than thirty days since I sent the records request below. I believe that 30 days is more than a reasonable amount of time to respond to my request.
Please let me know when my request will be filled.
Cordially,
me
******
From: me
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2016 4:39 PM
To: RTA's outside counsel
Cc: above identified people
Subject: Dayton RTA - records request regarding "private property" signage
Mr. Hollingsworth,
Attached are pictures of three of the numerous posted signs claiming that the Wright Transit Stop (adjacent to RTA’s headquarters in downtown Dayton) is private property.
Also attached is the deed to the transfer of the land that makes up the transit stop, clearly identifying RTA as a political subdivision of the State of Ohio. As RTA’s outside counsel, I’m sure you know that political subdivisions don’t own *private* property. Coupled together with RTA’s dubious claim of apparent authority to regulate firearm carry, I’m sure you understand my ongoing skepticism.
Under Ohio’s open records laws please provide me the following:
1) Electronic copies of communications discussing designating (and/or whether or not to designate) the transit stop as private property, via various methods such as posting/painting of signage.
2) Electronic copies of communications/directives/memos etc. instructing an individual, department or entity to post or paint signage indicating/claiming that the Transit Stop is private property.
3) Electronic copies of communications to non-RTA entities indicating/claiming that the transit stop is private property.
4) Electronic copies of bills or other records which indicate/show the cost of the above described signage/postings/paintings/notifications.
Although I’ve only referenced the Wright Transit Stop in the above four requests, if communications/costs/etc. are found to be applicable to, or reference RTA’s similarly posted (as “private property”) transit stops/centers/parking areas/garages, etc, please include them in your response also.
Cordially,
me
http://www.i-riderta.org/about-rta/resources/2356.PDF (Rules of Road)
http://www.i-riderta.org/about-rta/resources/2355.PDF (Code of Conduct)
http://www.mcohio.org/government/elected_officials/board_of_county_commissioners/index.php
At 3:28 PM this afternoon I sent a note to Mr. Donaghy, RTA CEO, regarding a records request I made on Oct. 13.
The Oct 13 records request (as was the note today) was copied to the secretary of Dayton's Chief of Police, the Montgomery County Sheriff, the head of Dayton's Law Department and her subordinate, a Montgomery County prosecutor, the three Montgomery County Commissioners, and Kelly May - the reporter from Dayton channel 22/45.
Here's what I sent today:
Mr. Donaghy,
It’s been more than thirty days since I sent the records request below. I believe that 30 days is more than a reasonable amount of time to respond to my request.
Please let me know when my request will be filled.
Cordially,
me
******
From: me
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2016 4:39 PM
To: RTA's outside counsel
Cc: above identified people
Subject: Dayton RTA - records request regarding "private property" signage
Mr. Hollingsworth,
Attached are pictures of three of the numerous posted signs claiming that the Wright Transit Stop (adjacent to RTA’s headquarters in downtown Dayton) is private property.
Also attached is the deed to the transfer of the land that makes up the transit stop, clearly identifying RTA as a political subdivision of the State of Ohio. As RTA’s outside counsel, I’m sure you know that political subdivisions don’t own *private* property. Coupled together with RTA’s dubious claim of apparent authority to regulate firearm carry, I’m sure you understand my ongoing skepticism.
Under Ohio’s open records laws please provide me the following:
1) Electronic copies of communications discussing designating (and/or whether or not to designate) the transit stop as private property, via various methods such as posting/painting of signage.
2) Electronic copies of communications/directives/memos etc. instructing an individual, department or entity to post or paint signage indicating/claiming that the Transit Stop is private property.
3) Electronic copies of communications to non-RTA entities indicating/claiming that the transit stop is private property.
4) Electronic copies of bills or other records which indicate/show the cost of the above described signage/postings/paintings/notifications.
Although I’ve only referenced the Wright Transit Stop in the above four requests, if communications/costs/etc. are found to be applicable to, or reference RTA’s similarly posted (as “private property”) transit stops/centers/parking areas/garages, etc, please include them in your response also.
Cordially,
me
http://www.i-riderta.org/about-rta/resources/2356.PDF (Rules of Road)
http://www.i-riderta.org/about-rta/resources/2355.PDF (Code of Conduct)
http://www.mcohio.org/government/elected_officials/board_of_county_commissioners/index.php
Last edited:
color of law
Accomplished Advocate
Mr. Donaghy is having the vapors.
Last edited:
color of law
Accomplished Advocate
Not even half cocked!!!!!Excuse me, Sir. Did you know your hammer's not back?
Basicblack
Newbie
Dayton RTA OC
I did in fact open carry, I was wearing a red shirt with my Taurus PT111 G2 (which is Black)it is bigger than my Glock 43. I apologize in leaving out some details I was doing two things at once. From the moment I stepped on the bus my weapon was in the open on my right side. I've decided I would take this stance the rest of the week. Tomorrow will probably be a white shirt I'll keep everyone up to date.
I did in fact open carry, I was wearing a red shirt with my Taurus PT111 G2 (which is Black)it is bigger than my Glock 43. I apologize in leaving out some details I was doing two things at once. From the moment I stepped on the bus my weapon was in the open on my right side. I've decided I would take this stance the rest of the week. Tomorrow will probably be a white shirt I'll keep everyone up to date.
BB62
Accomplished Advocate
Thanks for the followup. Evidently you're neither especially ugly or good looking! :lol:
Please keep us posted.
BB62
Accomplished Advocate
uh, you allowed internet while in the hoosegow? :shocker:
ipse
added: pm if gofundme bail campaign is initiated.
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BB62
Accomplished Advocate
I don't believe that Basicblack can PM until he posts five posts.
Or, if you were referring to me, I'm out on my own recognizance!
Basicblack
Newbie
I'm alive and never jailed 
I opened carryed every day that it was warm. On a personal note I would never open carry at the downtown hub on the regular to many in a small space. To the point I was noticed carrying by drivers, employees etc. One driver did a double take. I went out of my way to have my hip facing a driver or employee at all times. I did a walk around the building and had conversations with people. I spent hours on this project and there was one moment I was for sure I was about to be arrested. An officer walked over to an employee and there was a random guy in the conversation pointing at me but nothing became of it. I don't believe the RTA has change their policies I think that until they "review the law" they don't want to be on the news. I believe that if they decide to change their policies it will be done very quietly as so most people believe that it is illegal to carry. Most people I talked to believe it's illegal under Ohio law solely because it's public transportation.
I opened carryed every day that it was warm. On a personal note I would never open carry at the downtown hub on the regular to many in a small space. To the point I was noticed carrying by drivers, employees etc. One driver did a double take. I went out of my way to have my hip facing a driver or employee at all times. I did a walk around the building and had conversations with people. I spent hours on this project and there was one moment I was for sure I was about to be arrested. An officer walked over to an employee and there was a random guy in the conversation pointing at me but nothing became of it. I don't believe the RTA has change their policies I think that until they "review the law" they don't want to be on the news. I believe that if they decide to change their policies it will be done very quietly as so most people believe that it is illegal to carry. Most people I talked to believe it's illegal under Ohio law solely because it's public transportation.
BB62
Accomplished Advocate
First, they've had plenty of time to "review the law". "The law" has been pointed out to them for years.
It's clear to me that they're going to see if they can wait me out. I guarantee you that's not going to happen.
Second, RTA hasn't changed their policies, despite being "hands-off" with you. Check out the following:
http://www.i-riderta.org/about-rta/resources/2356.PDF (item #15)
"Customers may not carry onto an RTA vehicle any item, which could cause injury or damage to RTA riders or property including firearms, ..."
AND
http://www.i-riderta.org/about-rta/resources/2355.PDF (item #1)
(prohibitions) "Carrying or possessing weapons of any kind, including weapons carried pursuant to a valid license."
Basicblack
Newbie
I didn't say that they would change hints theses """. I said what I said because Kelly may (the reporter) stated that she plans on taking another swing at it and at some point they will have to answer her. My question is who wants to stand with me? There is a lot of talk but no action. If we got 15 people to Open Carry down there a statement will have to be made. Let's stop writing letters and take the fight to them. A peaceful protest that will bring attention to the issue. We have a reporter who wants an answer from them let's make this give one.
BB62
Accomplished Advocate
RTA acknowledges it's publicly owned property
BUT, that addresses only part of the problem. Signage only *may* be changed, and RTA's anti-gun policies remain unchanged (see the Rules of the Road and Code of Conduct).
In a series of back and forth e-mails, starting with post #70 on this thread, the following communications took place (read from bottom to top):
(red bold below is mine) NOTE - the "memo" referred to in Mr. Donaghy's response was from **2009**.
From: Donaghy, Mark
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 10:57 AM
To: me
Subject: RE: Dayton RTA - records request regarding "private property" signage - **FOLLOWUP II**
RTA property is publicly owned. RTA signage is likely to change, replacing the word “private” with “RTA” or “GDRTA”.
From: me
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 10:01 AM
To: Donaghy, Mark
Subject: RE: Dayton RTA - records request regarding "private property" signage - **FOLLOWUP II**
Mr. Donaghy,
I’m not sure what you mean by “overthinking”.
Let me cut to the chase by asking a simple yes/no question: Are you saying that in fact the Wright Transit Stop is public property open to the public, not private property as posted?
Cordially,
me
PS – this is not to be construed as a withdrawal of my outstanding records requests
From: Donaghy, Mark
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 6:43 AM
To: me
Subject: Re: Dayton RTA - records request regarding "private property" signage - **FOLLOWUP**
Yes
Sent from my iPad
On Nov 14, 2016, at 10:26 PM, BB62 wrote:
Does the attached document contain the ‘memo’ you are referring to?
From: Donaghy, Mark
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2016 8:07 PM
To: me
Subject: Re: Dayton RTA - records request regarding "private property" signage - **FOLLOWUP**
The memo from me to John Thomas regarding verbiage for WSP signs. I believe it was sent ahead of the large quantities of documents.
Sent from my iPad
On Nov 14, 2016, at 7:15 PM, BB62 wrote:
Mr. Donaghy,
I was sent more than a thousand pages of documents in response to a prior records request. What ‘memo’ (referred to in your #1 and #2 response below) are you referring to?
Please attach it to your response, as a response.
Cordially,
me
From: Donaghy, Mark
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2016 6:55 PM
To: me
Subject: RE: Dayton RTA - records request regarding "private property" signage - **FOLLOWUP**
Here is an update by item:
1. We have found no documents other than the memo sent to you regarding verbiage for the signs.
2. Again, the memo sent is the only document we have identified.
3. There are no such documents
4. We do not have documents that address this request.
I think you may be overthinking this. As you may have noted by reading what we sent and our facilities code, all references other than the signage refer to property as RTA or GDRTA Property, not private property. The memo we provided was the only reference we found.
Mark
****************
ORIGINAL REQUEST:
From: me
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2016 4:39 PM
To: RTA's outside counsel
Cc: above identified people
Subject: Dayton RTA - records request regarding "private property" signage
Mr. Hollingsworth,
Attached are pictures of three of the numerous posted signs claiming that the Wright Transit Stop (adjacent to RTA’s headquarters in downtown Dayton) is private property.
Also attached is the deed to the transfer of the land that makes up the transit stop, clearly identifying RTA as a political subdivision of the State of Ohio. As RTA’s outside counsel, I’m sure you know that political subdivisions don’t own *private* property. Coupled together with RTA’s dubious claim of apparent authority to regulate firearm carry, I’m sure you understand my ongoing skepticism.
Under Ohio’s open records laws please provide me the following:
1) Electronic copies of communications discussing designating (and/or whether or not to designate) the transit stop as private property, via various methods such as posting/painting of signage.
2) Electronic copies of communications/directives/memos etc. instructing an individual, department or entity to post or paint signage indicating/claiming that the Transit Stop is private property.
3) Electronic copies of communications to non-RTA entities indicating/claiming that the transit stop is private property.
4) Electronic copies of bills or other records which indicate/show the cost of the above described signage/postings/paintings/notifications.
Although I’ve only referenced the Wright Transit Stop in the above four requests, if communications/costs/etc. are found to be applicable to, or reference RTA’s similarly posted (as “private property”) transit stops/centers/parking areas/garages, etc, please include them in your response also.
Cordially,
me
BUT, that addresses only part of the problem. Signage only *may* be changed, and RTA's anti-gun policies remain unchanged (see the Rules of the Road and Code of Conduct).
In a series of back and forth e-mails, starting with post #70 on this thread, the following communications took place (read from bottom to top):
(red bold below is mine) NOTE - the "memo" referred to in Mr. Donaghy's response was from **2009**.
From: Donaghy, Mark
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 10:57 AM
To: me
Subject: RE: Dayton RTA - records request regarding "private property" signage - **FOLLOWUP II**
RTA property is publicly owned. RTA signage is likely to change, replacing the word “private” with “RTA” or “GDRTA”.
From: me
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 10:01 AM
To: Donaghy, Mark
Subject: RE: Dayton RTA - records request regarding "private property" signage - **FOLLOWUP II**
Mr. Donaghy,
I’m not sure what you mean by “overthinking”.
Let me cut to the chase by asking a simple yes/no question: Are you saying that in fact the Wright Transit Stop is public property open to the public, not private property as posted?
Cordially,
me
PS – this is not to be construed as a withdrawal of my outstanding records requests
From: Donaghy, Mark
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 6:43 AM
To: me
Subject: Re: Dayton RTA - records request regarding "private property" signage - **FOLLOWUP**
Yes
Sent from my iPad
On Nov 14, 2016, at 10:26 PM, BB62 wrote:
Does the attached document contain the ‘memo’ you are referring to?
From: Donaghy, Mark
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2016 8:07 PM
To: me
Subject: Re: Dayton RTA - records request regarding "private property" signage - **FOLLOWUP**
The memo from me to John Thomas regarding verbiage for WSP signs. I believe it was sent ahead of the large quantities of documents.
Sent from my iPad
On Nov 14, 2016, at 7:15 PM, BB62 wrote:
Mr. Donaghy,
I was sent more than a thousand pages of documents in response to a prior records request. What ‘memo’ (referred to in your #1 and #2 response below) are you referring to?
Please attach it to your response, as a response.
Cordially,
me
From: Donaghy, Mark
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2016 6:55 PM
To: me
Subject: RE: Dayton RTA - records request regarding "private property" signage - **FOLLOWUP**
Here is an update by item:
1. We have found no documents other than the memo sent to you regarding verbiage for the signs.
2. Again, the memo sent is the only document we have identified.
3. There are no such documents
4. We do not have documents that address this request.
I think you may be overthinking this. As you may have noted by reading what we sent and our facilities code, all references other than the signage refer to property as RTA or GDRTA Property, not private property. The memo we provided was the only reference we found.
Mark
****************
ORIGINAL REQUEST:
From: me
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2016 4:39 PM
To: RTA's outside counsel
Cc: above identified people
Subject: Dayton RTA - records request regarding "private property" signage
Mr. Hollingsworth,
Attached are pictures of three of the numerous posted signs claiming that the Wright Transit Stop (adjacent to RTA’s headquarters in downtown Dayton) is private property.
Also attached is the deed to the transfer of the land that makes up the transit stop, clearly identifying RTA as a political subdivision of the State of Ohio. As RTA’s outside counsel, I’m sure you know that political subdivisions don’t own *private* property. Coupled together with RTA’s dubious claim of apparent authority to regulate firearm carry, I’m sure you understand my ongoing skepticism.
Under Ohio’s open records laws please provide me the following:
1) Electronic copies of communications discussing designating (and/or whether or not to designate) the transit stop as private property, via various methods such as posting/painting of signage.
2) Electronic copies of communications/directives/memos etc. instructing an individual, department or entity to post or paint signage indicating/claiming that the Transit Stop is private property.
3) Electronic copies of communications to non-RTA entities indicating/claiming that the transit stop is private property.
4) Electronic copies of bills or other records which indicate/show the cost of the above described signage/postings/paintings/notifications.
Although I’ve only referenced the Wright Transit Stop in the above four requests, if communications/costs/etc. are found to be applicable to, or reference RTA’s similarly posted (as “private property”) transit stops/centers/parking areas/garages, etc, please include them in your response also.
Cordially,
me
Last edited by a moderator:
color of law
Accomplished Advocate
http://www.i-riderta.org/about-rta/reports-policies
Under "Reports & Policies" - "Rules of the Road" says: "Customers may not carry onto an RTA vehicle any item, which could cause injury or damage to RTA riders or property including firearms, knives or such hazardous materials as gasoline, propane tanks or car batteries."
It looks like RTA still has problems.
Under "Reports & Policies" - "Rules of the Road" says: "Customers may not carry onto an RTA vehicle any item, which could cause injury or damage to RTA riders or property including firearms, knives or such hazardous materials as gasoline, propane tanks or car batteries."
It looks like RTA still has problems.
BB62
Accomplished Advocate
If you object to the pace, manner, or content of my efforts, there's nothing I know of preventing you and/or others from organizing an multi-person open carry walk and/or ride right now.
But, I'd like to understand what you think such a thing would accomplish by itself - unless you have other plans?
Such an event would doubtless get airtime, but again, by itself would it cause RTA to change their signage and anti-gun policies? As far as I'm concerned the answer is NO CHANCE.
RTA/Mark Donaghy has made it clear that nothing is going to change without significant, and possibly legal, effort.
Regardless, please keep us apprised of your efforts to advance things at the speed and in the manner you desire.
Makarov
Regular Member
I'm up for a ride and live in Dayton
color of law
Accomplished Advocate
Maybe the county prosecutor may advise him otherwise....
Statkowski
Regular Member
Might be an already-answered question, but have you tried communicating with your elected State Representative over the issue?
color of law
Accomplished Advocate
Politics are local.....
Statkowski
Regular Member
The politics may well be local, but, as previously stated, the RTA is a political subdivision of the State of Ohio. As such, a State representative's interest certainly couldn't hurt, and might help.