• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Discreet Open Carry?

utbagpiper

Banned
Joined
Jul 5, 2006
Messages
4,061
Location
Utah
Minions of the CC Industrial Complex hold themselves up as the responsible practitioner of our RKBA. The CC Industrial Complex has been the greatest impediment to permit-less carry in MO, and other states. The CC Industrial Complex would have OC made unlawful via legislative acts.

Utah is not among those "other States".

While we do not yet have legal gold star OC, we have made some important progress in the last few years including specific protections against bogus charges of Disorderly Conduct for those who OC a holstered firearm, as well as permit free car carry (OC or CC) in Utah. Two years ago, permit free CC/OC passed our legislature but was vetoed by the governor.

So far as I can recall, we've never had either individual permit instructors, nor any association of Utah permit instructors lobby against any bill that moved us closer to permit free constitutional carry. They've never lobbied in favor of any bill to require additional training for permits.

A couple of years back when we had some reported problems with Utah certified instructors in other States, the local instructors lobbied to require all Utah certified instructors to come to Utah in person for initial and periodic refresher training. I believe they joined with pro-RKBA organizations to lobby in favor of requiring non-resident holders of Utah permits to first obtain their home-State permit if their State recognizes a Utah permit. This was done to protect recognition of Utah permits by other States.

I understand that in some States, permit instructors have taken to favoring their own income over true RKBA. That is most unfortunate, but do not assume that your local experience is ubiquitous.


If a permit is a infringement, permits must be disparaged at every turn.

Hogwash.

Shall issue permits have served as an important stepping stone from no practical carry allowed in many places, toward permit free respect for RKBA? With the exception of Vermont, how many States currently enjoying permit-free concealed carry did not pass through shall issue permits?

Only those completely naïve as to how the SCOTUS makes decisions would think that Heller and McDonald were made without consideration of the State and local firearms laws. In his dissent, Breyer bemoans that 41 States preempt cities from passing local gun bans as the reason more local gun bans don't exist. He points out that pro-RKBA respondents point out the statistical data on strict gun laws correlating to higher murder rates with no drop in suicides, while laws making it easier to carry guns have benefits for personal protection. He writes, "These empirically based arguments may have proved
strong enough to convince many legislatures, as a matter of legislative policy, not to adopt total handgun bans."

Of course, he goes on to give his reasons for rejecting the data. But the data was present before the court. If Breyer writes on it, it was certainly on the mind of the 5 Justices who ruled favorably (however narrowly, but favorably) in Heller. And that data was present largely because politically achievable progress on legally carrying firearms had been made since antebellum and Jim Crow era laws intended to disarm slaves and other "undesirables" had been applied fairly universally to all commoners, excepting only the wealthy and well connected. The majority decision also quoted State constitutional RKBA provisions, some of which had been updated to be more explicit about the individual right to KBA.

Even if we had somehow had exactly the same members on the court in 1980 as we had in 2007, I'm not at all convinced that Heller would have been decided in favor of an individual right to own a handgun and keep it ready for use in one's home. I believe there is a distinct possibility that it would have instead come down as a "collective right" subject to complete bans of guns anytime a modest government interest could be shown. 5-4. Only one justice would have had to be swayed to the other side.

There are times and places where the supposed "value" of permits needs to be attacked so as to advance from shall issue permits to permit free carry. But there are other times and places where shall issue permits and recognition of out-of-State permits remain the next politically and/or judicially possible stepping stone. Getting DC to recognize other jurisdictions' permits would be a huge win for our ability to defend ourselves. Similarly if Maryland, NJ, NY, Illinois, Cali, and other States were required to recognize out-of-State permits.

Sure, a single ruling forcing the entire nation to recognize permit-free RKBA would be ideal. We are not likely to see that. We can continue to make incremental progress. Shall issue, non-discriminatory permits have been and will likely continue to be an important part of that for some time to come. Such permits are offensive to our constitutional rights, but are less offensive than most every other politically/judicially probable alternative.

Let us also not forget the millions of LACs who have enjoyed greater ability to legally defend themselves the last 3 decades because of shall issue permits, than otherwise would have been able to. Permit free carry would have been better, but not political feasible in most areas.

And as much as we all support OC, we need to recognize that even most who carry are not comfortable with OCing themselves. The ability to legally carry discretely was instrumental in bringing many new persons into the fold of the pro-RKBA community.

Thirty years ago conventional wisdom was that gun ownership was going to come to an end. Fewer people were hunting. Ranges and gun training had been taken from schools. It was getting harder for the ever more urbanized population to find ranges for recreational target shooting. The gun haters just had to wait for us gun owning dinosaurs to die off and there wouldn't be enough who cared about guns/RKBA to put up any practical political opposition. But then something happened. Crime was way up and somehow, Florida cracked the door on shall issue permits. Most States followed. And a whole new group of gun owners emerged: urbanites who wanted guns specifically for self-protection. Many had no interest at all in hunting, or target shooting or collecting. They wanted to protect themselves, but were not inclined to OC in most cases. The '94 black gun ban hit and the community fractured between "Fudds" and collectors and militia nuts with black rifles and the growing ranks of handgun packing city dwellers woke up and came together.

Shall issue permits played a key and positive role in drawing many new folks into our ranks. They helped set the stage for Heller.

We need to move beyond them to permit free carry as quickly and as widespread as possible. But shall issue permits are nothing to disparage for any who understand the history.

Charles
 

Nang pa

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2015
Messages
64
Location
United States
I keep reading and hearing this, but I will be darn if I understand what is discrete OC. Is it carry with the shirt covering most of the gun except for the bottom of holster or slide? Is is walking, standing with the gun side away from everybody who might see it? Or is it concealing but wearing gun clothing, or clothing that announces that you are concealed carry? Or maybe it is CC with one of those CC sash, or badges?

There is nothing, IMO, discrete about our OC, nor do I want it to be. The whole purpose of OCing is so the bad guys can clearly see you are not a victim. Our Handguns are clearly visible in OWB holsters, nothing covering the guns in any way. IMO there is no such thing as discrete OC, but hey that does not sound tactikewl.
Yeah I've seen this before. "Discrete open carry" just means you're applying a small measure of attention to how you dress, like matching your shoes with your belt. That's all. An example would be a shirt that loosely matches your 1911 wood grips. Or black jeans with a black leather holster.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
...

Hogwash.

...
OK

quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by OC for ME

If a permit is a infringement, permits must be disparaged at every turn.
A carry permit is a prior restraint...a infringement. Liberty centric citizens know this and should disparage this infringement at every turn. Politicians must be held to account for supporting a prior restraint, the infringement, on the 2A. Politicians have only two choices, restore liberty by removing the prior restraint; or make unlawful the carry of a firearm outside the home, no permit to carry.

Unfortunately, many politicians are not being held to account for viewing permits as a reasonable restriction on the 2A.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
OK

A carry permit is a prior restraint...a infringement. Liberty centric citizens know this and should disparage this infringement at every turn. Politicians must be held to account for supporting a prior restraint, the infringement, on the 2A. Politicians have only two choices, restore liberty by removing the prior restraint; or make unlawful the carry of a firearm outside the home, no permit to carry.

Unfortunately, many politicians are not being held to account for viewing permits as a reasonable restriction on the 2A.

+1 If someone believes in asking permission to exercise rights then they do not believe in rights or liberty.
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
9,315
Location
here nc
OK

A carry permit is a prior restraint...a infringement. Liberty centric citizens know this and should disparage this infringement at every turn. Politicians must be held to account for supporting a prior restraint, the infringement, on the 2A. Politicians have only two choices, restore liberty by removing the prior restraint; or make unlawful the carry of a firearm outside the home, no permit to carry.

Unfortunately, many politicians are not being held to account for viewing permits as a reasonable restriction on the 2A.

OC4ME...how bout we leave it at the bolded sentiment...

ipse
 

Tucker6900

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2008
Messages
1,279
Location
Iowa, USA
I usually carry with my elbow over my pistol...maybe that's more discreet than not?

Same here. My S&W M&P .45 is in just the right position that I can, at times, rest my forearm on it. As far as discreet open carry goes, my definition is keeping my strong (pistol) side away from the crowd, if I can help it. Not because I care about hurt feelings, but more out of awareness. If my firearm is between my body and the grocery shelf, I feel much better. When I am walking downtown Iowa City, I usually walk with my left side close(r) to the buildings. I will also make sure there aren't too many people near me when bending over or reaching up when I am out and about. My wife gets annoyed because it takes a few minutes longer to do everything, but hey, I waited for her before we left! :)
 
Top