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Draw time

stealthyeliminator

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Dec 29, 2008
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Texas
Ok, I keep hearing this by opponents to open carry, and I just want to scream ******** every time I do. I don't understand how someone could be so, what I'd call plain ignorant, about something as critical as self defense. Please tell me if I'm wrong.

This article basically dismisses the whole draw time argument to focus on another point. But at the beginning it does mention draw/deployment time. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/08/robert-farago/the-hidden-benefit-of-open-carry/

People say and say again how draw time reduction by OCing can be small. Ok, that may be true. But then they conclude that the "small" reduction in draw time is negligible. Wait, what? How is ANY DRAW TIME REDUCTION NEGLIGIBLE? How is ANY SKILL INCREASE NEGLIGIBLE? I don't understand how anyone who has managed to keep their head out of their ass can come to the conclusion that in the realm of self defense any benefit or advantage can be considered negligible, even if it's a mere fraction of a second difference in draw time. Am I wrong?
 
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KRM59

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Jul 17, 2010
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louisville, Kentucky
I can only speak from my own practice regiment both oc and cc, but i find the draw time more than any so called negligible. But on another note it depends on my attire, summer or winter. Winter clothes seem to add a different level in access when cc. But like i said this is just my personal practice.
 

Fallschirjmäger

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Let me see if I have a handle on this...
Because an expert who practices hours, days, weeks, months and years to acquire a certain skill set can something, I, who hasn't practiced should be able to do much the same?

Because Andy Goodfellah can ride a stock Hondasaki 9/10ths as fast as he can a race-prepped Hondasaki, I should be able to ride my street stock Hondasaki with comparable speed and skill although all my fast riding is once a month up on the mountains and maybe 5-10mph over the limit?
 
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golddigger14s

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Apr 27, 2010
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Lawton, OK USA
Even if OC, and CC draw time is exactly the same, I think OC wins. With OC you have deterrence, and the need to draw being eliminated entirely. With CC the BG doesn't know you have a gun till forced to draw. Once you have to draw is when everything is about to go to hell. As stated in the article: "Another frequently overlooked point: the more people open carrying in a given location the more effective the deterrent."
 

Fallschirjmäger

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Wouldn't "CC is better than OC because the criminals won't be able to tell who is armed and who isn't and so will be more reluctant to commit crimes due to the ambiguity" analogous to "Plainclothes police are superior to uniformed police because the criminals won't be able to tell who is an officer and who isn't and so will be more reluctant to commit crimes due to the ambiguity."

And for that matter, "CC is safer than OC because OC guys will be the be shot first" could easily be rephrased as, "plain clothes are safer than uniformed because the criminals won't know who to shoot first."

Sorry, but uniforms and openly carried arms both serve the same purpose, and have commensurate risks.
 

golddigger14s

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Wouldn't "CC is better than OC because the criminals won't be able to tell who is armed and who isn't and so will be more reluctant to commit crimes due to the ambiguity" analogous to "Plainclothes police are superior to uniformed police because the criminals won't be able to tell who is an officer and who isn't and so will be more reluctant to commit crimes due to the ambiguity."

And for that matter, "CC is safer than OC because OC guys will be the be shot first" could easily be rephrased as, "plain clothes are safer than uniformed because the criminals won't know who to shoot first."

Sorry, but uniforms and openly carried arms both serve the same purpose, and have commensurate risks.
This response will make you a hero on "USA CARRY" forum, I hope you're being sarcastic.
 

WalkingWolf

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Jul 31, 2011
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North Carolina
Draw time that is too slow is measured by the lead ripping though you as the other guy shoots first. This can be a nano second, every advantage in a fight can mean life or death.
 

Fallschirjmäger

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This response will make you a hero on "USA CARRY" forum, I hope you're being sarcastic.
Nope, I was being satirical. But, the heart of the matter is the same..
What is the main purpose behind the police dressing in distinctive costume and driving distinctively painted, easily visible cars?
Is the purpose to warn criminal of the presence of police? Or,
Is the purpose to deter crime by making the presence of police know far and wide?
 

stealthyeliminator

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Texas
Draw time that is too slow is measured by the lead ripping though you as the other guy shoots first. This can be a nano second, every advantage in a fight can mean life or death.
Thank you...

My thoughts exactly... I guess I'm not crazy after all. I'm amazed that someone can get on youtube, or write an article for mass dissemination, and say that some, any, self defense advantage is negligible. How can they take themselves seriously... How can anyone else take them seriously...
 

Yard Sale

Regular Member
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Feb 13, 2010
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715
Location
Northern Nevada, ,
My OC draw time is reliably under a second. My CC draw time, not so much.

OC, I never snag the cover garment and have to adjust my grip for a "penalty" draw time.
 

MyWifeSaidYes

Regular Member
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Dec 29, 2009
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Location
Logan, OH
I don't own a shot timer, but my kids tell me my first shot comes at 1.0 to 1.2 seconds when I do my "arms full" drill.

I cradle a 2-liter bottle full of water in each arm. On signal (my kids with the stopwatch yelling "Go"), I drop both bottles, draw and try to double-tap, I mean, shoot an accelerated pair at a 9" target at 21 feet.

That's when I open carry.

Trying to do this drill while concealed adds a full second or more.

That ain't negligible.
 

golddigger14s

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Lawton, OK USA
I don't own a shot timer, but my kids tell me my first shot comes at 1.0 to 1.2 seconds when I do my "arms full" drill.

I cradle a 2-liter bottle full of water in each arm. On signal (my kids with the stopwatch yelling "Go"), I drop both bottles, draw and try to double-tap, I mean, shoot an accelerated pair at a 9" target at 21 feet.

That's when I open carry.

Trying to do this drill while concealed adds a full second or more.

That ain't negligible.
If you have an Android there is a free app called IPSC Shot for a timer. There are some apps for that phone that is a fruit also.
 

flhrci

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2013
Messages
72
Location
Columbus, OH
I don't own a shot timer, but my kids tell me my first shot comes at 1.0 to 1.2 seconds when I do my "arms full" drill.

I cradle a 2-liter bottle full of water in each arm. On signal (my kids with the stopwatch yelling "Go"), I drop both bottles, draw and try to double-tap, I mean, shoot an accelerated pair at a 9" target at 21 feet.

That's when I open carry.

Trying to do this drill while concealed adds a full second or more.

That ain't negligible.
How about with your head holster? Might be faster!

David



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
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Aug 13, 2007
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Fairfax County, Virginia
While the ideal difference in draw time may be minimal (although it likely is not), that says nothing about the likelihood of non-idealities interfering with the practiced movement.

Anyone who has honestly tried both must conclude than CC offers infinitely more opportunity for a minor change in apparel to screw up a well-practiced draw stroke.

Whereas (for me, at any rate), OC is consistent across each and every draw, independent of dress or weather or anything else.
 
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MyWifeSaidYes

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Dec 29, 2009
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Logan, OH
golddigger14s said:
If you have an Android there is a free app called IPSC Shot for a timer.
A few years ago, I forced myself to go back to a dumb phone. I did, however, have my son download that app.

Do you know if there is one that will give you a start beep, preferably randomized after pushing the start button?


flhrci said:
How about with your head holster? Might be faster!
The problems are that, on quickly reaching for my gun, I smack myself in the face too hard and fall down.

If I manage to retain consciousness, upon drawing the gun, I tend to catch my glasses and fling them like a funny looking throwing star.

That causes the serious problem of the sunlight focusing through the lenses and setting the target on fire.

Now, for a human target, I guess that wouldn't be bad, but I tend to practice shooting at paper targets...on a wooden stand...in a forest.

Man, you should see the way squirrels look at me now.

It's worse than the way people look at me when I have a gun duct taped to my head.

:cry:



:banana:
 

Bernymac

Regular Member
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Feb 3, 2013
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415
Location
Las Vegas
A few years ago, I forced myself to go back to a dumb phone. I did, however, have my son download that app.

Do you know if there is one that will give you a start beep, preferably randomized after pushing the start button?




The problems are that, on quickly reaching for my gun, I smack myself in the face too hard and fall down.

If I manage to retain consciousness, upon drawing the gun, I tend to catch my glasses and fling them like a funny looking throwing star.

That causes the serious problem of the sunlight focusing through the lenses and setting the target on fire.

Now, for a human target, I guess that wouldn't be bad, but I tend to practice shooting at paper targets...on a wooden stand...in a forest.

Man, you should see the way squirrels look at me now.

It's worse than the way people look at me when I have a gun duct taped to my head.

:cry:



:banana:
Thanks for that nice slapstick visual...you owe me a new, coffee stain-free monitor! :dude:
 

Silvertongue

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
213
Location
Marion County, Tennessee
Some also like to forget the number of steps it takes to draw while concealed.

CC:
1) Discern threat.
2) Clear hands.
3) Clear concealment garment (sometimes requires two hands).
4) Obtain grip on firearm.
5) Disengage retention measures.
6) Draw firearm.

OC doesn't require number 3 and NEVER requires two hands to draw.

It is thus *scientifically impossible for one to draw from concealment as quickly as one can draw without concealment.

*Presented without any actual science by yours truly.
 

MyWifeSaidYes

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
Messages
1,028
Location
Logan, OH
Some also like to forget the number of steps it takes to draw while concealed.

CC:
1) Discern threat.
2) Clear hands.
3) Clear concealment garment (sometimes requires two hands).
4) Obtain grip on firearm.
5) Disengage retention measures.
6) Draw firearm.

OC doesn't require number 3 and NEVER requires two hands to draw....
I do require 2 hands when carrying my Nagant in a hip holster...

...of course, it's a Mosin Nagant.

:p

Sorry. I've just had WAY too much coffee today.
 

stealthyeliminator

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
3,100
Location
Texas
Some also like to forget the number of steps it takes to draw while concealed.

CC:
1) Discern threat.
2) Clear hands.
3) Clear concealment garment (sometimes requires two hands).
4) Obtain grip on firearm.
5) Disengage retention measures.
6) Draw firearm.

OC doesn't require number 3 and NEVER requires two hands to draw.

It is thus *scientifically impossible for one to draw from concealment as quickly as one can draw without concealment.

*Presented without any actual science by yours truly.
It's common sense, as they'd say... :)
 
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