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How many rounds are needed when carrying?

JustaShooter

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I usually don't carry extra mags either time. I don't consider it not smart. Not smart is being unarmed.

If more than a dozen rounds is the only "smart" way to carry, than I'd be advocating long gun carry instead.

Carrying a spare mag is as much or more about clearing malfunctions as it is about the additional rounds / firepower.
 

WalkingWolf

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Carrying a spare mag is as much or more about clearing malfunctions as it is about the additional rounds / firepower.

I guess I am lucky, in all my years of using a semi autos I have never needed a spare mag to clear a malfunction. Any gun that I felt needed a spare mag for such would get sold or thrown in the trash. I carry spare ammo for spare ammo. Not that I might need it in a gunfight, mostly because I do not want to walk away from one with a empty gun.
 

JustaShooter

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I guess I am lucky, in all my years of using a semi autos I have never needed a spare mag to clear a malfunction. Any gun that I felt needed a spare mag for such would get sold or thrown in the trash. I carry spare ammo for spare ammo. Not that I might need it in a gunfight, mostly because I do not want to walk away from one with a empty gun.

Don't know about lucky, those types of malfunctions aren't exactly common but they do happen. I've not experienced one but I've seen them. And it isn't that you can't clear it without a spare, it's that it is faster and easier to do so with a spare instead of trying to retain the mag you just pulled. Surely you are familiar with malfunctions that do not respond to the TRR drill?
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

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There are many ways to clear a malfunction dumping the mag can be one depending on the malfunction.

A double feed because of a failure to extract would be the prime example but then you would have the trouble of removing the offending case first. If it didn't extract the first time there's a good chance it well not come out the 2nd time racking the slide.

If this happens and it is your only weapon one needs to clear it.

Other wise transitioning to a 2nd weapon is your best choice or just plain getting out of harms way.

Any way ones needs to way the odds, convenience, of all of ones actions. Carrying spare ammo, a BUG or other means of defense is a personal choice.

It all is situational when I was working the odds were better of being placed in harms way then now that I am retired.

I carried BUGs, and had with me a rifle, shotgun and wore body armor every working day.

Besides hunting I don't carry two guns any more, and only have worn armor a couple of times when training.

It is a personal choice. Today its a Glock 23 and extra mag next week during deer season it well be a 5 shot 41 mag a couple extra rounds in my pocket and what ever rifle I have in my hands.
 

SD40VE

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North Macomb CO, MI
I guess I am lucky, in all my years of using a semi autos I have never needed a spare mag to clear a malfunction. Any gun that I felt needed a spare mag for such would get sold or thrown in the trash. I carry spare ammo for spare ammo. Not that I might need it in a gunfight, mostly because I do not want to walk away from one with a empty gun.

that is what i have always told my friends who asked about the spare mags on my hip. " dont want to walk home with a empty gun if i ever need to use it to defend myself"
 

WalkingWolf

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that is what i have always told my friends who asked about the spare mags on my hip. " dont want to walk home with a empty gun if i ever need to use it to defend myself"

That is it for me, I have been shooting semi autos for 30 years, probably hundreds of thousands of rounds on a state range. NEVER have I had a malfunction that required a spare mag. In fact I guess I am just lucky because I have never had a malfunction on a carry semi auto, if I ever do I won't carry it, EVER!

Now I have seen others who have malfunctions on public ranges with very expensive guns. Just makes me wonder sometimes about the quality of factory ammo. I handload almost all mine, and when I was still working the state range handloaded all of our training ammo. Any M39 that had the slightest problem was sent back to S&W. I just do not carry guns that have malfunctions, EVER!

Added; Bad guy will never give you time to clear a malfunction in a fight. You have one you are DEAD! I suggest if this is a concern that you carry two guns. I carry two revolvers because there is not enough time in a fight to reload, seriously. I usually only carry one semi auto, more rounds, less chance of needing a reload.

Listening to you guys go on about malfunctions makes me more inclined to carry revolvers. Hell I did not even have malfunctions with my M16 and I think it was made by a toy manufacturer.
 
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JustaShooter

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That is it for me, I have been shooting semi autos for 30 years, probably hundreds of thousands of rounds on a state range. NEVER have I had a malfunction that required a spare mag. In fact I guess I am just lucky because I have never had a malfunction on a carry semi auto, if I ever do I won't carry it, EVER!

Considering I can think of many reasons for a malfunction that would not disqualify the firearm, I find your thinking flawed. But then, I often find your thinking flawed so that's not surprising.

Just makes me wonder sometimes about the quality of factory ammo. I handload almost all mine, and when I was still working the state range handloaded all of our training ammo.

Handloading will not relieve you of the possibility of an ammunition-related malfunction. All it takes is a bad primer, weak brass, contaminated powder and there you are. But do enjoy your false sense of security.

Any M39 that had the slightest problem was sent back to S&W. I just do not carry guns that have malfunctions, EVER!

:rolleyes: So once a firearm has a part that wears and causes a malfunction you discard the firearm rather than repairing it?

Added; Bad guy will never give you time to clear a malfunction in a fight. You have one you are DEAD! I suggest if this is a concern that you carry two guns. I carry two revolvers because there is not enough time in a fight to reload, seriously. I usually only carry one semi auto, more rounds, less chance of needing a reload.

Never is a very long time. I suspect I could find examples of firefights where malfunctions were cleared and firearms reloaded where the good guy survived. But then, that would spoil your narrative, wouldn't it?

Listening to you guys go on about malfunctions makes me more inclined to carry revolvers.
Wow, I mention a malfunction once, then counter an argument you posed and suddenly I am "go[ing] on about malfunctions."

Seriously, you go ahead and make the choices you deem appropriate - carry your two revolvers with handloaded ammo if that is what you want to do - I don't care and won't fault you for your choices. But trying to deny the fact that malfunctions happen, even to correctly functioning firearms or handloaded ammo, is silly. And to argue that it is somehow not a good idea for a person to choose to do something to allow them to correct the malfunction in the fastest and easiest way possible is somehow wrong is just as silly.
 

WalkingWolf

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[snip]Seriously, you go ahead and make the choices you deem appropriate.

Thank you, I will, after all it is my family and my life I set standards for. You should do the same, if a occasional malfunction in a firefight you consider acceptable I wish you good luck. I really do.

I also have to ask, how many of you would let a bad guy clear a malfunction? Or would you take the opportunity to stop the BG?
 
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MyWifeSaidYes

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Logan, OH
I don't need to imagine any one specific situation, I only need to consider who made my gun.

If it's man-made, it's prone to failure.

Too many situations possible to imagine them all, anyway.

I carry spare mags, not for when I have a failure but for IF I have a failure.

Do I think my gun (S&W M&P .45c) will fail? No, but I'll save my optimism for the actual gunfight.

Where I am, in relation to the bad guy, will determine if I choose to clear a jam or draw my BUG.
 

WalkingWolf

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It is up to each individual what they might do, ME, unless my family is with me, I will run. I would not let a opportunity of a jammed gun pass, I don't expect a bad guy to. Gun fight distances are very short for LAC, there is no time for clearing. This is evidenced by the bad guys when their guns do fail, they get shot or captured most times. The best option outside of running is a backup. But bad guys sometimes survive by running, I would rather turn tail and survive than be a sitting target.

It is all up to you what you do, but not for me. Again any gun I do not have that level of confidence in IS trash. You guys are more forgiving than I am.
 

SD40VE

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Thank you, I will, after all it is my family and my life I set standards for. You should do the same, if a occasional malfunction in a firefight you consider acceptable I wish you good luck. I really do.

I also have to ask, how many of you would let a bad guy clear a malfunction? Or would you take the opportunity to stop the BG?

"ok mr bad guy, go ahead and clear your jammed round so we can resume shooting at each other" lets be realistic you are going to drop him like a bad habit
 

MAC702

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Carrying a spare mag is as much or more about clearing malfunctions as it is about the additional rounds / firepower.

If you have unreliable magazines to that extent, you should carry a revolver.

I'm not saying it's not a good idea. I'm saying it's not as big a deal as it is made out to be.

I have practice magazines, match magazines, and carry magazines. The latter are tested thoroughly, but not worn out and never dropped. I have less chance of a magazine failure than someone carrying two magazines that they do not test and sort as thoroughly.
 

WalkingWolf

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If you have unreliable magazines to that extent, you should carry a revolver.

I'm not saying it's not a good idea. I'm saying it's not as big a deal as it is made out to be.

I have practice magazines, match magazines, and carry magazines. The latter are tested thoroughly, but not worn out and never dropped. I have less chance of a magazine failure than someone carrying two magazines that they do not test and sort as thoroughly.


Agree, and those that carry for SD have to keep in mind it is nothing like competition. There are no refs, or judges. The loss of time is much more critical when your life is on the line. As opposed to rankings.

In SASS with cap and ball it is more common. There the loss is only in where the shooter places. But by actually watching a shooter have a malfunction it does not take long to figure what happens in a real gun or knife fight. I truly wish all a win in a fight for life, but I would not waste my time trying to clear a gun, that is just me.
 

mobiushky

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You guys are completely missing the point of the spare mag as a way to clear a malfunction. You took what you wanted to hear and ran with it. Justashooter isn't implying a bad magazine or a gun that requires a mag to clear the malfunction. He's saying, sometimes even with the most simple malfunction, it's faster to drop the mag and reload than it is to take the time to assess the jam and try to figure out how to clear it. Practiced malfunction drills can be very fast if you practice, practice, practice. I've seen trainers clear a double feed one handed weak side only darn fast. Fast enough I was shocked. If you practice drop the mag and reload on every click, that becomes the fastest way to clear a malfunction. It's all about how you train.

What he's talking about isn't that you suddenly have a crappy gun or a crappy magazine. He's saying, having a spare mag is a practiced way to make clearing a malfunction faster. What you guys are saying, well then that makes the gun bad and get a different one... That makes no sense.
 

MAC702

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I see your point, except any malfunction is, well, still a malfunction. It's a good thing simply pulling a gun probably got you out of the fight. After that, it's a good thing most fights will still end after a first shot, even if followed by a malfunction.

That said, most malfunctions are cleared faster without a magazine change. But yes, the ones that are better with a magazine change would have lost a little more time if the tap-rack-reassess didn't work first.

Yes, ANYthing that can make anything faster is better. But there is a law of diminishing returns here as with anything else.

If you are really keen on malfunction avoidance, carry a revolver with tested crimps on the ammo, or take your chances. They are pretty decent chances, after all.

Again, spare mags are not a bad practice! But it is not a chastisement if they are not carried.
 
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WalkingWolf

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I got what he meant, and in a real fight there is no time for even a mag change. We do not have backup, or usually even cover, that nano second is enough to get you killed. 380, and 22 LR have higher stop ratios for a reason, IMO because the shooters know damn well they better get it right the first time.

If I ever have a malfunction, I will run or rush instead fumbling, I will reload only if I have cover to reload. I am not going to stand there like a dead man waiting to get shot or cut. As I said I carry spare ammo so IF in the unlikely event I use my firearm, I do not have to leave with a empty firearm. Even with a BUG it is necessary to buy time to get to it, the bad guy is not going to wait. That may mean running to get to someplace safer to re engage, or fight, until the second gun can be engaged.

I will have to dig for it, but there is a martial arts trainer, that teaches your chances of survival are better by rushing. He consistently disarms all his opponents whether they have a knife or a gun.
 

mobiushky

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I see your point, except any malfunction is, well, still a malfunction. It's a good thing simply pulling a gun probably got you out of the fight. After that, it's a good thing most fights will still end after a first shot, even if followed by a malfunction.

That said, most malfunctions are cleared faster without a magazine change. But yes, the ones that are better with a magazine change would have lost a little more time if the tap-rack-reassess didn't work first.

Yes, ANYthing that can make anything faster is better. But there is a law of diminishing returns here as with anything else.

If you are really keen on malfunction avoidance, carry a revolver with tested crimps on the ammo, or take your chances. They are pretty decent chances, after all.

Again, spare mags are not a bad practice! But it is not a chastisement if they are not carried.

I agree. I was just clarifying the statements made and explaining why we "got it wrong" if you will. Yes, most all malfunctions are cleared quickly with no need to change mags, but in the event that you "did" need to it's the same mentality as carrying at all. Better to have and not need... and all that.

I'm not worried about malfunctions for pretty much the same reasons most have already said. I've never had one on any of my semi's that wasn't directly related to crap ammo. I assume any LAC SD use will be less than 16 rounds. Etc.. Etc. Which is why I don't carry my spare mags on my person unless I'm competing. I do keep them close by in a bag for whatever might require them, but I honestly don't anticipate ever needing them. I'm comfortable with a full mag + one in the chamber. But like we've all said, it's a personal preference thing really.
 

MAC702

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I agree. I was just clarifying the statements made and explaining why we "got it wrong" if you will. Yes, most all malfunctions are cleared quickly with no need to change mags, but in the event that you "did" need to it's the same mentality as carrying at all. Better to have and not need... and all that...

And I agree with you.

And that's my point: Where do you stop the "better to have and not need?" Each person decides for themselves.

Colonel Nathan Jessep, USMC: "Walk softly and carry an armored tank division, I always say." - A Few Good Men
 

mobiushky

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I got what he meant, and in a real fight there is no time for even a mag change. We do not have backup, or usually even cover, that nano second is enough to get you killed. 380, and 22 LR have higher stop ratios for a reason, IMO because the shooters know damn well they better get it right the first time.

If I ever have a malfunction, I will run or rush instead fumbling, I will reload only if I have cover to reload. I am not going to stand there like a dead man waiting to get shot or cut. As I said I carry spare ammo so IF in the unlikely event I use my firearm, I do not have to leave with a empty firearm. Even with a BUG it is necessary to buy time to get to it, the bad guy is not going to wait. That may mean running to get to someplace safer to re engage, or fight, until the second gun can be engaged.

I will have to dig for it, but there is a martial arts trainer, that teaches your chances of survival are better by rushing. He consistently disarms all his opponents whether they have a knife or a gun.

I honestly don't think anyone here has said otherwise. I don't think justashooter was trying to imply that he would stand in full open trying to make a quick change on a malfunction. I assume he was just saying the same thing you are, but that in his training he might chose to dump a mag when he does get to cover rather than worry about trying to fumble. I can't believe anyone here would honestly advocate facing down a BG and standing in the wide open with no cover just to prove how fast they can clear a malfunction. You're either shooting or you're moving and hiding. Hopefully a little of both.
 

WalkingWolf

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Here is one thing that should be kept in mind, and may be why I have had no problems. Most of the newer guns on the market are designed to be fed +P ammo. In revolvers it just means stronger better metal. In semi autos it means stiffer springs, this causes problems with target ammo. Most times a spring change will cure the problem if the person wants to shoot standard pressure. Otherwise if your semi is designed, advertised for +P, use +P. Or buy a second set of springs, all my semi's use standard springs, I do not use +P. In the case of my wife's Hi Point the ammo is loaded very hot, maximum pressure for 380. She gets 100% reliable function, the gun was designed for higher pressure, as most Hi Points are. Any time I have answered questions on malfunctions on them the problem the owners had cleared up completely with hot ammo.
 
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