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K9 alert for drugs" in car search Question

Primus

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False premise...flawed premise. A cop shop dog is not the property of the cop(s) it is the property of the people, the state if you will...government property. Cop dogs are lethal weapons that have no off switch, no safety once released. Heck, even when on a leash they are killing machines. When you get around to knowing the difference between private and public property we may be able to discuss this cop dog issue.

If I were to shoot a cop dog in self defense, because it growled at me, it would be "nice" if I were afforded the same "latitude" as a cop who shoots a privately owned dog...but I am not.

Make better points...

Anyway, nooo, it is the badge/uniform that permits a dirtbag to violate a citizen's rights. Without the badge/uniform the dirtbag can do nothing to you. nor would they cuz they would understand that they could/would be held to account for their dirtbaggery right there on the spot. Nope, a badge/uniform enables dirtbags to flourish with little downside to their dirtbaggery.

Not true. Was just chatting with one of our K9 guys yesterday. He bought his dog out of pocket 4500. When it retires he keeps it. Its his dog like my flashlight is mine.

Sure some departments buy the dogs. But when they don't then the dog is bought by the officer and its his dog. So then it IS private property.

And clearly you haven't worked wirb or been around many k9 dogs. Stop watching TV. Not all dogs are German (or Dutch) Shepard's that are trained to kill. We employ labs also that are explosive dogs. Wouldn't bite you even if you told them to. They just track and sniff. Now do we have dogs that when they get out even I step away because it'll eat me just as fast as you? Sure. But not all dogs are like that.

So I guess you answered his "false premise" with two of your own...

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OC for ME

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Not true. Was just chatting with one of our K9 guys yesterday. He bought his dog out of pocket 4500. When it retires he keeps it. Its his dog like my flashlight is mine.

Sure some departments buy the dogs. But when they don't then the dog is bought by the officer and its his dog. So then it IS private property.

And clearly you haven't worked wirb or been around many k9 dogs. Stop watching TV. Not all dogs are German (or Dutch) Shepard's that are trained to kill. We employ labs also that are explosive dogs. Wouldn't bite you even if you told them to. They just track and sniff. Now do we have dogs that when they get out even I step away because it'll eat me just as fast as you? Sure. But not all dogs are like that.

So I guess you answered his "false premise" with two of your own...

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I know what dogs are in my little town's cop shop. There is a reason no one is permitted to get close to them without their handler with them and the dog on his leash. Beagles and labs...well, I can't argue the point on that cuz different dogs are better than others depending on their "job." But no beagle is gunna be used to find a "perp" whether the perp is in fact deserving of being a perp. Dogs only know what their trained to do. If their job is to attack then guess what, that is what they do.

It is odd that you mention the bolded above. Many a home owner whose dog has been shot by a cop says the nearly exact same thing. Cop dogs have added protecting in the law here in MO. Killing or maiming (Class D felony), and even "assault" of a police dog (misdemeanor). You defend yourself from a cop dog's attack and you could (will?) be charged with assaulting the dog, resisting arrest at a minimum...though, i could be wrong. I guess if the dog makes a mistake and attacks the wrong person or the dog is directed to attack unjustly ya can't kill the dog, he is protected and must endure the attack and hope that a judge works it out for you.

My premise is and always will be sound...not false, dogs have no place in LE.

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/two-innocent-bystanders-attacked-orlando-k9-office/nfJNk/

http://www.wcvb.com/news/woman-walking-down-street-attacked-by-police-k9/26630978#!bvvAHq

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/13/police-dog-attacks-wrong-man_n_5317948.html
 

wimwag

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Doug
Not true. Was just chatting with one of our K9 guys yesterday. He bought his dog out of pocket 4500. When it retires he keeps it. Its his dog like my flashlight is mine.

Sure some departments buy the dogs. But when they don't then the dog is bought by the officer and its his dog. So then it IS private property.

And clearly you haven't worked wirb or been around many k9 dogs. Stop watching TV. Not all dogs are German (or Dutch) Shepard's that are trained to kill. We employ labs also that are explosive dogs. Wouldn't bite you even if you told them to. They just track and sniff. Now do we have dogs that when they get out even I step away because it'll eat me just as fast as you? Sure. But not all dogs are like that.

So I guess you answered his "false premise" with two of your own...

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kaboooooom! Knowledge bomb
 

sudden valley gunner

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Whatcom County
"Costumed rights infringer".... That's cute.. Come up with that all on your own or get help?

And let me walk you through it reaallll slow.

If he smells MJ or sees other things that build RAS he can then call dog. Dog comes and alerts on car which creates Probable cause for search or maybe warrsnt.

Get it? See it's a tiered concept. You can build RAS on your own. Then use a tool like a dog to build on (another tier maybe?) And then eventually have PC based on all that you have found.

But in reality as already stated the dog thing is a state issue because there's probably dozens of cases throughout the States that dictate when/how dogs are used and then what's admissible.

Less talk more listen/research.

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Interesting this cop would say this and then try to deny he is trying to infringe upon your rights when his own state ruled this way two years ago........

http://www.mymassachusettsdefensela...smell-of-marijuana-is-not-grounds-for-search/

FUQ-"Two years ago, the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court held that police may not search a vehicle based merely on the presence of the smell of marijuana."

Like I said you either have RAS or PC or not. Using a dog as a RAS or PC generator is a horrible infringement and needs to be stopped.
 

Primus

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Interesting this cop would say this and then try to deny he is trying to infringe upon your rights when his own state ruled this way two years ago........

http://www.mymassachusettsdefensela...smell-of-marijuana-is-not-grounds-for-search/

FUQ-"Two years ago, the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court held that police may not search a vehicle based merely on the presence of the smell of marijuana."

Like I said you either have RAS or PC or not. Using a dog as a RAS or PC generator is a horrible infringement and needs to be stopped.

Actually.... Your still off. That was the case that said BURNT marijuana was no longer enough to search. The re is an even more recent case that just came out a few months ago that builds on the Cruz case that says fresh marijuana is now out too. You can use it to BUILD Ras but it can't be by itself.

You may get it some day. Probably not since your a bit too spiteful. But I sincerely hope you let it go someday.

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OC for ME

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I'm at a loss as to how he is "still off" when you provide information that bolsters his point. Burnt and fresh MJ is no longer enough on its own...what is it that a drug dog "hits" on? Guilty looks, ethnicity, now that MJ smell is not enough?

I'll admit that I may not be the brightest bulb on the tree from time to time, but we are talking about the dog, right, and not the cop, right.
 

Primus

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I'm at a loss as to how he is "still off" when you provide information that bolsters his point. Burnt and fresh MJ is no longer enough on its own...what is it that a drug dog "hits" on? Guilty looks, ethnicity, now that MJ smell is not enough?

I'll admit that I may not be the brightest bulb on the tree from time to time, but we are talking about the dog, right, and not the cop, right.

Its not enough ALONE..... Can still be used to build a case.

So... I smell it. Not enough. I see ashes or maybe even a burnt roach. Not enough. Guy us known drug user/dealer to me. Maybe getting there. Visible paraphernalia. Warmer. Call dog hits on vehicle. Warmer still.... Etc. Etc.

That's how a case is supposed to be built. For both sides. If I HAVE (as I should) build a case on the street then it makes it harder to say your rights are being violated. It's a good thing for citizens that the Cruz case and follow on cases came from SJC. It means its harder to toss a car. But not impossible.

RAS and PC can be built in layers. Hence why your supposed to shut up when talking to police. You can help build the case against you.

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sudden valley gunner

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I'm at a loss as to how he is "still off" when you provide information that bolsters his point. Burnt and fresh MJ is no longer enough on its own...what is it that a drug dog "hits" on? Guilty looks, ethnicity, now that MJ smell is not enough?

I'll admit that I may not be the brightest bulb on the tree from time to time, but we are talking about the dog, right, and not the cop, right.

. He definitely put the or between the smell and the rest of his sentence. Last I checked he can't detain someone to build RAS. He supports using a dog to generate RAS which he claims to have before calling in the dog, but doesn't because he's only "building" it.
 

Primus

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. He definitely put the or between the smell and the rest of his sentence. Last I checked he can't detain someone to build RAS. He supports using a dog to generate RAS which he claims to have before calling in the dog, but doesn't because he's only "building" it.

Umm... No you DETAIN on RAS. You already have RAS before you ever smell something... Then build PC to arrest or search....


You suck at this. For someone who hates the system so much you might want to study the process a bit more.

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sudden valley gunner

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Umm... No you DETAIN on RAS. You already have RAS before you ever smell something... Then build PC to arrest or search....


You suck at this. For someone who hates the system so much you might want to study the process a bit more.

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Ummmm lol....I went off your words....

So how are you going to make someone stay while you go get a dog off a "smell" of marijuana.

Like I said you either have RAS or you don't.

You wrote....

" If the officer has RS/PC for a sniff he's going to call the dog BEFORE he gives the citation... Is no needs to "ask" or give the citation so your free to leave. He would just get the dog and have it there shortly and conduct the search.... Also the OP seemed to be asking what happens AFTER the search and something is found.. Not how to "avoid" said search..."

and then....

If he smells MJ or sees other things that build RAS he can then call dog. Dog comes and alerts on car which creates Probable cause for search or maybe warrsnt.

So again you have RAS or you don't, you are using the dog as an RAS generator....shame on you.


For someone who claims to have fought for our rights and liberties and has taken an oath to the constitution, maybe you should understand those more. I put those above your "system".


 
Last edited:

OC for ME

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Its not enough ALONE..... Can still be used to build a case.

So... I smell it. Not enough. I see ashes or maybe even a burnt roach. Not enough. Guy us known drug user/dealer to me. Maybe getting there. Visible paraphernalia. Warmer. Call dog hits on vehicle. Warmer still.... Etc. Etc.

That's how a case is supposed to be built. For both sides. If I HAVE (as I should) build a case on the street then it makes it harder to say your rights are being violated. It's a good thing for citizens that the Cruz case and follow on cases came from SJC. It means its harder to toss a car. But not impossible.

RAS and PC can be built in layers. Hence why your supposed to shut up when talking to police. You can help build the case against you.

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I am dense. A cop will detain a citizen for as long as it takes to build PC?

The smell of burt or fresh MJ? Nope, not good enough it seems.
Ashes? Does MJ ash look different than Pall Mall ash?
Burnt roach? Does a burnt roach look different than a unfiltered Pall Mall "roach?"
How did you get close enough to see a "burnt roach" or "ash" in the vehicle, plain view doctrine?

So, your nose is not good enough, but a cop dogs nose is? I am not getting this at all, and I apologize? How on earth can a cop dog in MA build upon anything that your own nose can not build upon?

I do agree, KYBMS.

Some cop dogs are trained killers, and other cop dogs are even money reliable at best.

End cop dogs use in LE.
 

Primus

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I am dense. A cop will detain a citizen for as long as it takes to build PC?

The smell of burt or fresh MJ? Nope, not good enough it seems.
Ashes? Does MJ ash look different than Pall Mall ash?
Burnt roach? Does a burnt roach look different than a unfiltered Pall Mall "roach?"
How did you get close enough to see a "burnt roach" or "ash" in the vehicle, plain view doctrine?

So, your nose is not good enough, but a cop dogs nose is? I am not getting this at all, and I apologize? How on earth can a cop dog in MA build upon anything that your own nose can not build upon?

I do agree, KYBMS.

Some cop dogs are trained killers, and other cop dogs are even money reliable at best.

End cop dogs use in LE.

Your not dense so don't play it. No one said you will be detained as long as it takes. Please quote if u feel that was said.

You broke down each thing individually.. It's totality of what you see hear and smell. Yes a MJ roach looks different then a pall mall. You can see/smell these from an open window into a vehicle.

Correct my nose is not as good as a dog nose.. Kind of the point of having the dog.

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OC for ME

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Your not dense so don't play it. No one said you will be detained as long as it takes. Please quote if u feel that was said.

You broke down each thing individually.. It's totality of what you see hear and smell. Yes a MJ roach looks different then a pall mall. You can see/smell these from an open window into a vehicle.

Correct my nose is not as good as a dog nose.. Kind of the point of having the dog.

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I am dense.

I asked a question. You stated that:
So... I smell it. Not enough. I see ashes or maybe even a burnt roach. Not enough. Guy us known drug user/dealer to me. Maybe getting there. Visible paraphernalia. Warmer. Call dog hits on vehicle. Warmer still.... Etc. Etc.
I'll call BS on the MJ roach looks different than a Pall Mall roach, to the best of my knowledge Zig Zag paper can be used for legal tobacco. And not all legal tobacco is the run of the mill brown stuff contained within a mass produced filtered cigarette.

Anyway, you detain the citizen because you don't have enough for PC from your observations. You want PC because you have RAS, you call a dog into do what? Confirm that which you already know that gives you RAS? When does the reasonable length rule come into play? When you think it has been too long or when a judge, well after the fact, thinks it was too long?

I'll move along now, I've learned all that can be learned regarding this topic. Your state is different than MO.
 

Primus

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Let's give cops xray cameras so they can see what ever you may be hiding, because their eyes can't see through things......:rolleyes:

You evil statist. Wanting oppressors to have more tools to oppress you with. Evil evil man. Break your chains of oppression and stop drinking the cool aid.

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HPmatt

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...Not all dogs are German (or Dutch) Shepard's that are trained to kill. We employ labs also that are explosive dogs. Wouldn't bite you even if you told them to. They just track and sniff. Now do we have dogs that when they get out even I step away because it'll eat me just as fast as you? Sure. But not all dogs are like that.

Those dogs/wolves late at night on the German Ubahns looked like the would bite your arm off for fun
 

OC Freedom

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Feb 20, 2014
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646
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ADA County, ID

scary stuff. Radiation is accumulative and their are limits by law and nature on how much a person can be dosed per year without long term effects. The violations this government does to the people is astounding. Well, its time to led line my auto and home.
 
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