Lack of 2nd strike capability

[pkbites]

It is my contention that in a heated fire fight even a well trained/practiced shooter may not immediately realize it if they pulled the trigger and their weapon failed to fire. What with adrenaline, fear, moving for cover, ears ringing, etc., it's understandable.

So why do so many modern handguns lack second strike capability? Especially striker fired pistols. There are some that do, so it's not like it's an engineering impossibility. What's the rationale for not having that feature on some pistols?

 

[pkbites]

ETA: Ears ringing, no PPE?

You walk around your daily life with ear plugs in? I'm talking about an actual firefight, not shooting at the range.

I have a Walther P99 (AKA Smith & Wesson SW99) that is striker fired and it has second strike capability and was no more expensive than a Glock.

 

[Brian D.]

Going strictly by memory here, I seem to recollect that some of the second strike autopistols had serious flaws and were removed from the marketplace. Taurus comes to mind but I don't remember which models. Think there were some others too. And of course the second strike capability was always an option with the double/single action handguns like the S&W 39/59/ and later series. But, keep reading and you'll see why I would tend not to try that, but rather get that round out of the gun by hand cycling the slide.

My training with semi auto handguns has long included the "tap rack bang" system of dealing with a failure to fire; the thought being that perhaps the round itself is defective in some way, and even if a second strike was possible, it may well be a critical waste of time.

That is surely one advantage of the good old double action revolver: By pulling the trigger again, you get a different round under the firing pin.

Nothing ruins 'Plan A' more quickly than getting a 'click' when you were expecting a 'bang'.

 

[mobiushky]

Just my opinion, take it or leave it.

I think it's fair to start by discussing your initial assertion. While it's not exactly a life or death fire fight, watch competitive shooters and see what happens when they have a dry magazine or a malfunction. When you say "immediately realize" that's a subjective position. How fast is immediately? I recently had a string in competition where I had a dry magazine immediately followed by a malfunction. Cleared through both in around 4 seconds and finished the stage. So that's bang, click, mag change, bang, click, tap, rack, bang.. in under four seconds. PS, this isn't intended to be a brag. I am NOT a great competitor. Most of the guys I compete against are way faster. I call myself a low speed high drag malfunctioner. We fall to the level we train to right, so if you train to recognize a malfunction and clear it, you will immediately realize and clear. A light strike or misfire on a round when in the heat of life or death is not worth trying to be sure that round is fired. Besides, you could potentially waste more time trying to "diagnose" an unfired round than just clearing it and moving on. Think of it this way. If your normal range practice is to try to re-strike an unfired bullet, that is what you will do when your adrenaline kicks in and you stop thinking. You could waste seconds clicking away on a round because that's what you practice.

So why not have them? Combat tactics have changed over the years. See above, but which is faster? Bang, click, click, click, realize nothing is happening, take the mental time (even milliseconds) to recognize a misfire, address the malfunction (whether rack slide or revolve cylinder) and get back into the fight. OR Train to know when the gun doesn't go bang and immediately address the malfunction. Bang, click, tap, rack, bang. With a restrike capable pistol, you're training to keep trying to fire a potential dud rather than eject the bullet and move on.

 

[Firearms Iinstuctor]

I carried many pistols with a second strike option never used it for that purpose if a round doesn't fire I get rid of it.

The pistols that allow a 2nd strike make dry fire practice easier.

 

[Firearms Iinstuctor]

Going strictly by memory here, I seem to recollect that some of the second strike autopistols had serious flaws and were removed from the marketplace. Taurus comes to mind but I don't remember which models. Think there were some others too. And of course the second strike capability was always an option with the double/single action handguns like the S&W 39/59/ and later series. .

All most all double action autos have 2nd strike capabilities the S@W 39 series, Ruger P series, Walthers, H@Ks, Sigs to name the top ones.

 

[color of law]

You walk around your daily life with ear plugs in? I'm talking about an actual firefight, not shooting at the range.

I have a Walther P99 (AKA Smith & Wesson SW99) that is striker fired and it has second strike capability and was no more expensive than a Glock.

In a gun fight adrenaline kicks in causing your hearing to shut down.

 

[pkbites]

In a gun fight adrenaline kicks in causing your hearing to shut down.

This is mostly false. The measure that adenaline affects the brains perception of auditory stimuli is limited at most.

Over the years I've know several officers who were involved in shootings. Every one of them told me their head was buzzing and ears ringing. They couldn't even hear their radio afterwards, just a din white nosie sound.

 

[hovercat]

In the war of Northern aggression, muskets were often found abandoned on the field, stuffed to the muzzle with unfired charges. The soldier would forget the cap, pull the trigger, recharge, forget the cap, pull the trigger.....

 

[solus]

This is mostly false. The measure that adenaline affects the brains perception of auditory stimuli is limited at most.

Over the years I've know several officers who were involved in shootings. Every one of them told me their head was buzzing and ears ringing. They couldn't even hear their radio afterwards, just a din white nosie sound.

yes, tinnitus is a known result from extreme stress situations as well as anxiety due to physiology changes in the circulatory system manifesting itself from the stressful event.

btw, how is something 'mostly false' ~ uh, the only true every other or third or fourth time or?

ipse

 

[color of law]

Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
In a gun fight adrenaline kicks in causing your hearing to shut down.

This is mostly false. The measure that adenaline affects the brains perception of auditory stimuli is limited at most.

Over the years I've know several officers who were involved in shootings. Every one of them told me their head was buzzing and ears ringing. They couldn't even hear their radio afterwards, just a din white nosie sound.

If that's the case can I get social security disability?????

 

[Fallschirjmäger]

Two things come to mind....
1) If I'm so preoccupied that I might not notice the first time my pistol failed to fire in a serious social encounter, why would I notice it when it didn't happen again?

2) Regarding the necessity, what are the chances that a cartridge that failed to fire after being struck once with a hammer/striker is going to fire the second time? Fifty percent? Seventy-five percent? Neither of those would be good enough for me to try to re-fire a known bad cartridge instead of exchanging the known bad for an assumed good cartridge with a quick tap-n-rack.

 

[pkbites]

Except for one nobody has really offered any reason a manufacturer would produce a pistol without second strike capability. In the old days semi-auto duty weapons with hammers all had second strike cabilility. I doubt the idea that it has to do with how shooters are trained. We were taught tap, cant, rack even back in the days when we carried Ruger P85 with SSC.

My brother, however, has a Walther PPX in .40 and while it is hammer fired it does not have second strike capibility. Odd.

 

[mobiushky]

Except for one nobody has really offered any reason a manufacturer would produce a pistol without second strike capability. In the old days semi-auto duty weapons with hammers all had second strike cabilility. I doubt the idea that it has to do with how shooters are trained. We were taught tap, cant, rack even back in the days when we carried Ruger P85 with SSC.

My brother, however, has a Walther PPX in .40 and while it is hammer fired it does not have second strike capibility. Odd.

Simple answer? Because it's not necessary. No need for it, why keep it?

 

[Firearms Iinstuctor]

Except for one nobody has really offered any reason a manufacturer would produce a pistol without second strike capability. In the old days semi-auto duty weapons with hammers all had second strike cabilility. I doubt the idea that it has to do with how shooters are trained. We were taught tap, cant, rack even back in the days when we carried Ruger P85 with SSC.

My brother, however, has a Walther PPX in .40 and while it is hammer fired it does not have second strike capibility. Odd.

Simple different operating system good, bad or other wise.

Unless I down to my last couple of cartridges I wouldn't try a 2nd strike.

If a factory round fails on the first strike there is something very wrong with it.

Hand loads can be a different matter a slightly high primer could be seated by the first one.

I still eject them out of hand.

We went to a slight different drill then a true, tap, rack, bang we added evaluate at the beginning and at the end.

Tap and rack only works with certain types of malfunctions and can make others worse.

We found the most common reason that a firearm stopped working was it was out of ammo.

When we were teaching a true tap, rack, bang we found when the pressure was on shooters would try tapping, racking several times before they realized their firearm was empty thus wasting time. where as a quick look tells one that the slide is lock back and you need to reload.

Also a revaluation of the situation after taking care of the reason your firearm stopped shooting was needed to hopefully stop unneeded rounds being shot.

Dealing with highly skilled shooters is very different then dealing with your average to moderate shooter.

 

[pkbites]

But none of this explains why a manufacturer would change from having it on most pistols to having it on very few. I cannot find any OEM websites that explains why.

I prefer it for multiple dry firing, which someone already brought up earlier.

 

[mobiushky]

But none of this explains why a manufacturer would change from having it on most pistols to having it on very few. I cannot find any OEM websites that explains why.

I prefer it for multiple dry firing, which someone already brought up earlier.

It's not likely that you'll ever find a reason. New advancements change things, fads change things, economics change things, you name it. Any number of reasons can cause directions to change. I guess if you have to have a reason, put them all on cards, tape them to a dart board and throw a dart. Any of them is as good as any other. I tend to think it lies more in the fad end of things.

 

[Firearms Iinstuctor]

But none of this explains why a manufacturer would change from having it on most pistols to having it on very few. I cannot find any OEM websites that explains why.

I prefer it for multiple dry firing, which someone already brought up earlier.

Maybe it is Just one word.


GLOCK :lol:

 

[1245A Defender]

Well,,,

Maybe it is Just one word.


GLOCK :lol:

BTW,, Glock does Not have 2nd strike!!

I have a P38/01,,, a P64,,, a CZ82,,, and a FNP45, they all have 2nd strike!


OTOH,,, any semi with an exposed hammer can be recocked manually and tried again!

 

[taxman]

OTOH,,, any semi with an exposed hammer can be recocked manually and tried again!

A DA with 2nd strike makes some sense.
Line up sights, pull trigger, click, pull trigger again while still pointed at your target.

Anything more complicated than that, do you want to recock and try again, and probably have to clear and chamber a good round anyway, or do you just want to start by clearing?

With a rimfire, I deal with misfires by recocking, the majority of the time it works.

With a centerfire, I wouldn't waste much time on it. If it didn't go bang, it probably doesn't want to go bang.
That goes double for a self defense or hunting situation with a living moving target.