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Metro trespassed someone from my property today; with video

Primus

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With so many replies and long postings on just one thread I wonder how some have time to go to the range. Or does working the keyboard help keep the trigger finger in shape?

I know off topic. I will not let it happen until the next time.
Since I use my phone its mainly my thumbs that get the work out. But lately some of fecal matter I'm reading makes me occasionally use another finger on each hand to express my love for them.

I guess thumb strength is kind good for racking? Maybe? If you use the extended arms method (I don't....)

I suppose strong thumbs are also key to getting dogs to stop attacking you.
 

ed2276

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Nevada Carrier, I would just stay away from the whole citizen arrest and detention idea. I have to first say that, given she has been issued a no trespass warning, you certainly have the right to arrest and detain her. It's been suggested that you would be falsely imprisoning her, and that for you to detain her for trespass when your stated goal is to get her off your property is unwarranted. I disagree.

False imprisonment would be "unlawful" detention. If you have placed her under arrest for trespass, which you have a lawful right to do, then the detention is not unlawful. Having arrested her, you would have the lawful right to detain her, as long as your actions are reasonable. Yes, your goal is to keep her off your property, but to say that after you lawfully arrest her you are defeating your stated purpose by making her remain on your land is a stretch. By detaining her you are not inviting her to stay on your land. You are simply doing what a lawful arrest necessarily implies, keeping her from leaving until you can deliver her into police custody.

So, in my opinion, yes, you do have the right to arrest her if you find her on your property, and you have the lawful right to detain her without the detention converting her trespass into an invitation to remain on your property. However, you never know how the police, DA, or judge will view your actions. For those reasons, I would not place her under citizen's arrest. If you mess up in anyway, if you think she has trespassed when she hasn't, or you in some way unlawfully detain her then you are toast. You can be criminally charged with false arrest and false imprisonment, and she can civilly sue you for false imprisonment and malicious prosecution, and you have none of the immunity protections that police officers have.

She has already been served a written trespass notice. You have access to video surveillance, which can record her if she trespasses again, you know who she is and where she lives. If she trespasses again then call the cops, make out a report, and turn over the video evidence. The cops can't arrest her for a misdemeanor trespass if they don't see her do it, but if they see her trespassing on video after having been served the no trespass warning then they can arrest and detain her. You don't have to deal with the potential liabilities of arresting and detaining her yourself.
 
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utbagpiper

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That's not what I said. Considering the rest of my post, you'll agree that I draw the line on issues of "morality" not implied by the NAP, irrespective of their basis in religion....

Thank you for that clarification.


further in your discussion if hooligans in the park, where all you can see in response is force, and yet I can envision dozens of ways to maximize everyone's enjoyment of the park without relying on prohibitory law.

To be brief, the problem with NAP as some universal morality is that I do not recognize any right to shoot up drugs and copulate in broad daylight in public. Any morality system or rights theory which leads to a conclusion that such a right exists is fatally flawed in my opinion. Yes, this is an "ends and means" argument.

I know my moral compass is no universal. I know that men of good conscience disagree with me. But I simply do not recognize a right to engage in the most sordid conduct imaginable, in public, in broad daylight.

Charles
 

DON`T TREAD ON ME

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Thank you for that clarification.




To be brief, the problem with NAP as some universal morality is that I do not recognize any right to shoot up drugs and copulate in broad daylight in public. Any morality system or rights theory which leads to a conclusion that such a right exists is fatally flawed in my opinion. Yes, this is an "ends and means" argument.

I know my moral compass is no universal. I know that men of good conscience disagree with me. But I simply do not recognize a right to engage in the most sordid conduct imaginable, in public, in broad daylight.

Charles

Do you hold the same distaste if two dogs copulate in public?
 

marshaul

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To be brief, the problem with NAP as some universal morality is that I do not recognize any right to shoot up drugs and copulate in broad daylight in public. Any morality system or rights theory which leads to a conclusion that such a right exists is fatally flawed in my opinion. Yes, this is an "ends and means" argument.

I know my moral compass is no universal. I know that men of good conscience disagree with me. But I simply do not recognize a right to engage in the most sordid conduct imaginable, in public, in broad daylight.

Well, at least we've pared it down to the real, fundamental disagreement.

I might point out that "sordid" is an emotionally-laden term, and that in general it seems you're starting from "feels" and looking for logical/moral structures to justify it after the fact, but I guess that's kind of the point: I'm comfortable removing myself from the analysis and approaching it as objectively as I can approximate, whereas you are comfortable arguing that your own preferences self-justify their enforcement through law (at least, should you obtain the "consent" of some arbitrary and generally fictional "majority").

I suppose all that sounded quite judgmental, but I am conceding that we've reached a deep impasse which reason seems unequipped to bridge. Either I am right or you are justified, and if there is a god or gods, they'll sort it out. Something like that, right?
 
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marshaul

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Do you hold the same distaste if two dogs copulate in public?

Hah! I think you make an excellent point.

IMHO seeing two dogs "at it" is just as revolting as seeing two people (well, most two people anyway :p). Frankly, I suspect most folks agree at a "mechanical" level. But since the law doesn't have much to say about it – and barring, you know, actual aggression on the dogs' part, we aren't going to shoot them – the vast majority of us learn to live with that sort of thing without comment, concern, or in fact letting it affect us at all.

To put it another way, if you just ignored two people similarly minding their own business, I think you'd find your life quite unaffected.

Personally, I prefer that approach to the more authoritarian one. YMMV.
 
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twoskinsonemanns

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Thank you for that clarification.




To be brief, the problem with NAP as some universal morality is that I do not recognize any right to shoot up drugs and copulate in broad daylight in public. Any morality system or rights theory which leads to a conclusion that such a right exists is fatally flawed in my opinion. Yes, this is an "ends and means" argument.

I know my moral compass is no universal. I know that men of good conscience disagree with me. But I simply do not recognize a right to engage in the most sordid conduct imaginable, in public, in broad daylight.

Charles

The real problem with NAP is it goes against what I suspect is the basic evolutionary imperative of competition. It's a need to dominate in order to strive. Of course the rules have changed I think. Evolution (arguably) has had a paradigm shift. Very little effort is needed to strive and pass along our genes. I think it's time to let go of this notion of control and domination.
 
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marshaul

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The real problem with NAP is it goes against what I suspect is the basic evolutionary imperative of competition. It's a need to dominate in order to strive. Of course the rules have changed I think. Evolution (arguably) has had a paradigm shift. Very little effort is needed to strive and pass along our genes. I think it's time to let go of this notion of control and domination.

I'm not sure I agree. To me it's quite clear that humans are a social species, and that any evolutionary tendencies towards "competition" of the aggressive sort will be observed directed outside one's group/tribe/clan. Rare instances of aggressive "competition" directed inside a group is, by definition, abnormal/sociopathic and most likely criminal as well.

If I'm right about this, I submit that most modern humans are members of very large tribes (if any tribe all), and that coupled with a bit of enlightenment philosophy is plenty to begin having humans view themselves as part of a large, pan-human "tribe". In fact, I submit this process is well underway and has been for some time. This would be quite clearly compatible with NAP.

The fact that there are outliers – sociopaths – is no more impediment to accepting NAP than it would be for any other moral system. NAP allows one to defend himself and his "tribe" accordingly against those who are immoral/aggressive.
 
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utbagpiper

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Well, at least we've pared it down to the real, fundamental disagreement.

I might point out that "sordid" is an emotionally-laden term, and that in general it seems you're starting from "feels" and looking for logical/moral structures to justify it after the fact, but I guess that's kind of the point: I'm comfortable removing myself from the analysis and approaching it as objectively as I can approximate, whereas you are comfortable arguing that your own preferences self-justify their enforcement through law (at least, should you obtain the "consent" of some arbitrary and generally fictional "majority").

I suppose all that sounded quite judgmental, but I am conceding that we've reached a deep impasse which reason seems unequipped to bridge. Either I am right or you are justified, and if there is a god or gods, they'll sort it out. Something like that, right?

Some needlessly pejorative terms notwithstanding, you are correct. At the end of the day, I think there is conduct that is so offensive, to so many in most communities, that those communities ought to be free to prohibit that conduct unless that conduct has been explicitly recognized in our constitutions as being fundamental and protected against majority infringement.

I suppose I could try to make some case that some conduct is a violation of the NAP or some other entirely rationally based system of morality based on how it degrades quality of life for decent people. But I'd simply be trying to wrap reason around what I freely admit is an emotionally laden belief.

Just as I trust the collective conscience of the community, as expressed through a randomly selected, impartial jury to say that a law is unjust or a specific circumstance warrants acquittal even though the law itself is generally acceptable, I trust the collective conscience of the community, as expressed through duly elected legislators--and tempered by judges applying original intent readings of our constitutions (which we rarely get), to impose legal sanctions on certain conduct that some would call "victimless" crimes.

Now, I'm very much a federalist. If Vegas, New Orleans, or your particular community wants to take a very libertarian or even libertine view of what it will accept, I don't see that as my or the federal government's concern. But I believe my community has a proper power to place some limits especially on public conduct that shocks the sensibilities of the community.

Lacking any claimed, objective basis, this position is open to attack with slippery slope, reducto ad absurdum, and other such fallacies and arguments. To these, my response is that experience has shown that our system of government with division of powers does a reasonable job of protecting fundamental rights, while also permitting majorities to set local bounds on public conduct.

Being a federalist, I believe good fences make good neighbors, and I support the right to vote with our feet. Those who want the freedom to copulate or get stoned in public, engage in cock or dog fighting, who want to see (or are willing to tolerate) houses of prostitution next door to their schools, should seek out like-minded persons and live in communities that reflect those values. Those who want the freedom to take their families to the park without seeing such conduct, who believe animals should not abused merely for recreation, etc, should be free to do likewise. And even those statists who care very much about what color everyone's front door is painted, should also be free to form their own communities, limited, like the others, by enumerated, fundamental rights.

If you can ever muster the necessary super-majority to get public copulation and drug use listed as an enumerated, fundamental right, I'll have to live with it. Until then, I'll be simple and honest. Any rights theory or moral system that results in the public having to tolerate the most offensive of human conduct in public is not a theory or system to which I can subscribe.

Put another way, no matter how good your logic sounds, if it tells me that water must run up hill, I'm going to reject it in favor of another system, however imperfect it may appear, that acknowledges that water runs downhill and that society has the proper power to set some limits on public conduct.

All the best.

Charles
 

davidmcbeth

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We should have a "close this thread button" that folks can press....even if it does nothing but placate oneself...

I'm pressing one in my mind right now .. pressing it many times in respect to this derailed, OP gone thread
 
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scouser

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Do you hold the same distaste if two dogs copulate in public?

Hah! I think you make an excellent point.

IMHO seeing two dogs "at it" is just as revolting as seeing two people (well, most two people anyway :p). Frankly, I suspect most folks agree at a "mechanical" level. But since the law doesn't have much to say about it – and barring, you know, actual aggression on the dogs' part, we aren't going to shoot them – the vast majority of us learn to live with that sort of thing without comment, concern, or in fact letting it affect us at all.

To put it another way, if you just ignored two people similarly minding their own business, I think you'd find your life quite unaffected.

Personally, I prefer that approach to the more authoritarian one. YMMV.

if you don't want the dogs to have sex in public in the park, you'll need to post a sign in clear view in the park for the dogs to read. Once they've been told, whether or not they care to read the notice, by a clearly visible sign they have no excuse for their continued fornication.

except for the fact they're dogs and they don't care about whether or not their behavior around other dogs revolts any of us.

In the earlier example of 2 people shooting up and publically copulating in the park, our concern should be focused on the safety aspect of what happens to the used needles rather than the public copulation. Granted I dont want to see public sex between a pair of stoned hippies either.

However, I do want to hear more about the pink flamingos......
 

DON`T TREAD ON ME

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Do you believe we should treat humans the same as we treat dogs?

Do you believe humans should behave themselves as mere dogs?

Charles

I do not believe I have acknowledged your self proclaimed authority to "rate" the importance of life as it exists. Of course that would be me treating you as a mere human. I simply respect life. the only one I care to own is mine. I answered your question, can you, with conscience answer mine?
 

utbagpiper

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Ugh. Just to save people's time wading through that BS he basically said....
* I'm happy with the government's rules
* If you don't like it leave.


It is a real shame when the slightest disagreement over non-RKBA issues leads you to proclaim other person's views as "BS." Your response suggests to me you are unwilling or incapable of engaging in civil, thoughtful discussion.

I was polite in my response to Marshaul and frankly acknowledged he and I were at an impasse because of my views. I strongly suspect that if he responds at all, he will do so with basic civility. Why do you feel the need to be so hostile as opposed to being polite, or just agreeing to disagree with me? I'm not claiming I'm right and Marshaul is wrong. I'm explaining my opinion and why there isn't any need for Marshaul and me to discuss this point further.

I was not aware that support for RKBA required one to accept libertarian or anarchist views of society. I accept your right to order your communities as you and your neighbors see fit within the very broad limits of constitutionally enumerated rights. I claim the same rights for my community. I would like to see great diversity of social norms and mores in this nation. I believe we'd greatly reduce conflict and unhappiness if we'd leave each State and community much more freedom to order itself according to majority desires.

That means a lot of places would be far too liberal for my taste. Some would be more libertarian than I care for. Some others would suit me well. So long as all respected enumerated rights we could all travel and visit without fear of having those rights abridged, and being able to return home to live in a community that we found particularly well to our liking.

And in the information age, the need to live in one geographic location vs another for work is ever decreasing.

I just don't see the reason for hostility or incivility over minor disagreements about what we think makes for the most livable community.

And with this post, I've done my best to polite. Recognizing I am far afield and I sadly doubt that further discussion is likely to increase pleasantries, this will be my final post on this matter in this thread.

Charles
 
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twoskinsonemanns

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It is a real shame when the slightest disagreement over non-RKBA issues leads you to proclaim other person's views as "BS." Your response suggests to me you are unwilling or incapable of engaging in civil, thoughtful discussion.

I was polite in my response to Marshaul and frankly acknowledged he and I were at an impasse because of my views. I strongly suspect that if he responds at all, he will do so with basic civility. Why do you feel the need to be so hostile as opposed to being polite, or just agreeing to disagree with me? I'm not claiming I'm right and Marshaul is wrong. I'm explaining my opinion and why there isn't any need for Marshaul and me to discuss this point further.

I was not aware that support for RKBA required one to accept libertarian or anarchist views of society. I accept your right to order your communities as you and your neighbors see fit within the very broad limits of constitutionally enumerated rights. I claim the same rights for my community. I would like to see great diversity of social norms and mores in this nation. I believe we'd greatly reduce conflict and unhappiness if we'd leave each State and community much more freedom to order itself according to majority desires.

That means a lot of places would be far too liberal for my taste. Some would be more libertarian than I care for. Some others would suit me well. So long as all respected enumerated rights we could all travel and visit without fear of having those rights abridged, and being able to return home to live in a community that we found particularly well to our liking.

And in the information age, the need to live in one geographic location vs another for work is ever decreasing.

I just don't see the reason for hostility or incivility over minor disagreements about what we think makes for the most livable community.

And with this post, I've done my best to polite. Recognizing I am far afield and I sadly doubt that further discussion is likely to increase pleasantries, this will be my final post on this matter in this thread.

Charles

UGH... Would someone please post the point of this long self-pleasing post as I did in the one previous. Just don't have the inclination to suffer another one.
 

marshaul

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Now, I'm very much a federalist. If Vegas, New Orleans, or your particular community wants to take a very libertarian or even libertine view of what it will accept, I don't see that as my or the federal government's concern. But I believe my community has a proper power to place some limits especially on public conduct that shocks the sensibilities of the community.

Lacking any claimed, objective basis, this position is open to attack with slippery slope, reducto ad absurdum, and other such fallacies and arguments. To these, my response is that experience has shown that our system of government with division of powers does a reasonable job of protecting fundamental rights, while also permitting majorities to set local bounds on public conduct.

Being a federalist, I believe good fences make good neighbors, and I support the right to vote with our feet. Those who want the freedom to copulate or get stoned in public, engage in cock or dog fighting, who want to see (or are willing to tolerate) houses of prostitution next door to their schools, should seek out like-minded persons and live in communities that reflect those values. Those who want the freedom to take their families to the park without seeing such conduct, who believe animals should not abused merely for recreation, etc, should be free to do likewise. And even those statists who care very much about what color everyone's front door is painted, should also be free to form their own communities, limited, like the others, by enumerated, fundamental rights.

If you can ever muster the necessary super-majority to get public copulation and drug use listed as an enumerated, fundamental right, I'll have to live with it. Until then, I'll be simple and honest. Any rights theory or moral system that results in the public having to tolerate the most offensive of human conduct in public is not a theory or system to which I can subscribe.

I find Federalism appealing myself (especially if government is assumed as a given), so I appreciate where you're coming from. Perhaps if our country had maintained its Federalist principles more rigidly I would be more sympathetic to the argument.

"Well, you can always move somewhere else."

First of all, when rights are implicated this is wholly unacceptable. (What if there is no single place which respects all my rights?)

But, even in the area of putative "non-rights" such as using marijuana (I maintain this is a right, but we can ignore that for now), this seems another convenient fiction. Consider, for instance, marijuana. Our Federal government has used its considerable influence to essentially impose prohibition on the various states, a fact which is only now seeing (slow) reform. Through an extortive process of stealing money via taxation, then making disbursement of these monies back to the states from whose citizens it was appropriated dependent on those states adopting certain policies (the Feds did the same thing with 21 drinking age, you may recall), the Feds have in many cases created homogenous national policy in clear circumvention of any process which might be described as "representative" in anything other than the most symbolic sense.

And that's par for the course with government. In theory, government implements the will of its constituents. In practice, however, it implements the will of whatever elites the majority have "elected" (remembering this is generally a vote against the "lesser evil" rather than a vote for a candidate who truly represents the constituent). While the fiction is always "consent of the governed", the truth is not always so.

There really doesn't seem to be any way to fix that aside from Jeffersonian direct democracy, which is highly likely to suffer from its own set of problems. (There is already an effort underway to convince folks that their rights aren't the negative rights of self-sufficiency, but rather the positive rights of dependency. If this succeeds, Jefferson's observation that the people are the surest custodians of their own rights will take on a truly twisted consequence.)

Anyway, even if reform of the previously-described fictions was possible, you're still justifying your interventions based on a theoretical system which has, as yet, never actually been implemented. Perhaps you can understand why I don't find that as convincing as it, perhaps, ought to be.
 
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