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MTMckinley bank Branch Manger

Wirelesscto

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2009
Messages
50
Location
Delta Junction, Alaska, USA
imported post

JoeSparky wrote:
Wirelesscto wrote:
JoeSparky wrote:
Wirelesscto wrote:
JoeSparky wrote:
Wirelesscto wrote:
Ok lets talk about anouther subject of great debate?



Post offices??? Is open and CCW legal in a post office if you are there to say pickup your mail???





I say yes after reading the federal Law what about you guys?
Please provide a cite to the specific federal law you were reading!
its was above but here is is again
Looking at 18 USC 930, it would appear, at first blush, that carrying firearms is prohibited. That section provides:

  1. § 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities


    Release date: 2004-08-06

    a. Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.
So part of the confusion is rooted in the wording of this section. The prohibition applies to "Federal facilit(ies)" except as provide for in subsection (d). Subsection (d) provides:

  1. (d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to-


    (1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;

    (2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or

    (3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.


That is NOT the law that makes it illegal to carry in the post office. Try title 39 as is posted earlier in this thread.


Title 39 can only be enforced as stated by



q) Enforcement. (1) Members of the U.S. Postal Service security
force shall exercise the powers of special policemen provided by 40
U.S.C. 318 and shall be responsible for enforcing the regulations in
this section in a manner that will protect Postal Service property.

Ready this post as well



http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum65/7601.html

The enforcement power per this regulation can also be DELEGATED! per Title 39

I had previously seen the reference to Title 18 but since the OP had not posted which Federal law he was reading to make his determination, I felt it was incumbant upon someone to ask him.

]]





Below is the whole code there is no delegated or definition of office use in the this section....




Code:
[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 39, Volume 1]
[Revised as of July 1, 2001]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 39CFR232.1]

[Page 55-58]
 
                        TITLE 39--POSTAL SERVICE
 
                 CHAPTER I--UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE
 
PART 232--CONDUCT ON POSTAL PROPERTY--Table of Contents
 
Sec. 232.1  Conduct on postal property.

    (a) Applicability. This section applies to all real property under 
the charge and control of the Postal Service, to all tenant agencies, 
and to all persons entering in or on such property. This section shall 
be posted and kept posted at a conspicuous place on all such property.
    (b) Inspection, recording presence. (1) Purses, briefcases, and 
other containers brought into, while on, or being removed from the 
property are subject to inspection. However, items brought directly to a 
postal facility's customer mailing acceptance area and deposited in the 
mail are not subject to inspection, except as provided by section 274 of 
the Administrative Support Manual. A person arrested for violation of 
this section may be searched incident to that arrest.
    (2) Vehicles and their contents brought into, while on, or being 
removed from restricted nonpublic areas are subject to inspection. A 
prominently displayed sign shall advise in advance that vehicles and 
their contents are subject to inspection when entering the restricted 
nonpublic area, while in the confines of the area, or when leaving the 
area. Persons entering these areas who object and refuse to consent to 
the inspection of the vehicle, its contents, or both, may be denied 
entry; after entering the area without objection, consent shall be 
implied. A full search of a person and any vehicle driven or occupied by 
the person may accompany an arrest.
    (3) Except as otherwise ordered, properties must be closed to the 
public after normal business hours. Properties also may be closed to the 
public in emergency situations and at such other times as may be 
necessary for the orderly conduct of business. Admission to properties 
during periods when such properties are closed to the public may be 
limited to authorized individuals who may be required to sign the 
register and display identification documents when requested by security 
force personnel or other authorized individuals.
    (c) Preservation of property. Improperly disposing of rubbish, 
spitting, creating any hazard to persons or things, throwing articles of 
any kind from a building, climbing upon the roof or any part of a 
building, or willfully destroying, damaging, or removing any property or 
any part thereof, is prohibited.
    (d) Conformity with signs and directions. All persons in and on 
property shall comply with official signs of a prohibitory or directory 
nature, and with the directions of security force personnel or other 
authorized individuals.
    (e) Disturbances. Disorderly conduct, or conduct which creates loud 
and unusual noise, or which obstructs the usual use of entrances, 
foyers, corridors, offices, elevators, stairways, and parking lots, or 
which otherwise tends to impede or disturb the public employees in the 
performance of their duties, or which otherwise impedes or disturbs the 
general public in transacting business or obtaining the services
provided on property, is prohibited.
    (f) Gambling. Participating in games for money or other personal 
property, the operation of gambling devices, the conduct of a lottery or 
pool, or the selling or purchasing of lottery tickets, is prohibited on 
postal premises. This prohibition does not apply to the vending or 
exchange of State Lottery tickets at vending facilities operated by 
licensed blind persons where such lotteries are authorized by state law. 
(See Domestic Mail Manual 123.351 and 123.42; Administrative Support 
Manual 221.42; Regional Instructions, Part 782, section IV G 2c.)
    (g) Alcoholic beverages, drugs, and smoking.
    (1) A person under the influence of an alcoholic beverage or any 
drug that has been defined as a ``controlled substance'' may not enter 
postal property or operate a motor vehicle on postal property. The 
possession, sale, or use of any ``controlled substance'' (except when 
permitted by law) or the sale or use of any alcoholic beverage (except 
as authorized by the Postmaster General or designee) on postal premises 
is prohibited. The term ``controlled substance'' is defined in section 
802 of title 21 U.S.C.
    (2) Smoking (defined as having a lighted cigar, cigarette, pipe, or 
other smoking material) is prohibited in all postal buildings and office 
space, including public lobbies.
    (h) Soliciting, electioneering, collecting debts, vending, and 
advertising. (1) Soliciting alms and contributions, campaigning for 
election to any public office, collecting private debts, soliciting and 
vending for commercial purposes (including, but not limited to, the 
vending of newspapers and other publications), displaying or 
distributing commercial advertising, soliciting signatures on petitions, 
polls, or surveys (except as otherwise authorized by Postal Service 
regulations), and impeding ingress to or egress from post offices are 
prohibited. These prohibitions do not apply to:
    (i) Commercial or nonprofit activities performed under contract with 
the Postal Service or pursuant to the provisions of the Randolph-
Sheppard Act;
    (ii) Posting notices on bulletin boards as authorized in 
Sec. 243.2(a) of this chapter;
    (iii) The solicitation of Postal Service and other Federal military 
and civilian personnel for contributions by recognized agencies as 
authorized by the Manual on Fund Raising Within the the Federal Service, 
issued by the Chairman of the U.S. Civil Service Commission under 
Executive Order 10927 of March 13, 1961.
    (2) Solicitations and other actions which are prohibited by 
paragraph (h)(1) of this section when conducted on Postal Service 
property should not be directed by mail or telephone to postal employees 
on Postal Service property. The Postal Service will not accept or 
distribute mail or accept telephone calls directed to its employees 
which are believed to be contrary to paragraph (h)(1) of this section.
    (3) Leafleting, distributing literature, picketing, and 
demonstrating by members of the public are prohibited in lobbies and 
other interior areas of postal buildings open to the public. Public 
assembly and public address, except when conducted or sponsored by the 
Postal Service, are also prohibited in lobbies and other interior areas 
of postal building open to the public.
    (4) Voter registration. Voter registration may be conducted on 
postal premises only with the approval of the postmaster or installation 
head provided that all of the following conditions are met:
    (i) The registration must be conducted by government agencies or 
nonprofit civic leagues or organizations that operate for the promotion 
of social welfare but do not participate or intervene in any political 
campaign on behalf of any candidate or political party for any public 
office.
    (ii) Absolutely no partisan or political literature may be 
available, displayed, or distributed. This includes photographs, 
cartoons, and other likenesses of elected officials and candidates for 
public office.
    (iii) The registration is permitted only in those areas of the 
postal premises regularly open to the public.
    (iv) The registration must not interfere with the conduct of postal 
business, postal customers, or postal operations.
    (v) The organization conducting the voter registration must provide 
and be responsible for any equipment and supplies.
    (vi) Contributions may not be solicited.
    (vii) Access to the workroom floor is prohibited.
    (viii) The registration activities are limited to an appropriate 
period before an election.
    (5) Except as part of postal activities or activities associated 
with those permitted under paragraph (h)(4) of this section, no tables, 
chairs, freestanding signs or posters, structures, or furniture of any 
type may be placed in postal lobbies or on postal walkways, steps, 
plazas, lawns or landscaped areas, driveways, parking lots, or other 
exterior spaces.
    (i) Photographs for news, advertising, or commercial purposes. 
Except as prohibited by official signs or the directions of security 
force personnel or other authorized personnel, or a Federal court order 
or rule, photographs for news purposes may be taken in entrances, 
lobbies, foyers, corridors, or auditoriums when used for public 
meetings. Other photographs may be taken only with the permission of the 
local postmaster or installation head.
    (j) Dogs and other animals. Dogs and other animals, except those 
used to assist persons with disabilities, must not be brought upon 
postal property for other than official purposes.
    (k) Vehicular and pedestrian traffic. (1) Drivers of all vehicles in 
or on property shall be in possession of a current and valid state or 
territory issued driver's license and vehicle registration, and the 
vehicle shall display all current and valid tags and licenses required 
by the jurisdiction in which it is registered.
    (2) Drivers who have had their privilege or license to drive 
suspended or revoked by any state or territory shall not drive any 
vehicle in or on property during such period of suspension or 
revocation.
    (3) Drivers of all vehicles in or on property shall drive in a 
careful and safe manner at all times and shall comply with the signals 
and directions of security force personnel, other authorized 
individuals, and all posted traffic signs.
    (4) The blocking of entrances, driveways, walks, loading platforms, 
or fire hydrants in or on property is prohibited.
    (5) Parking without authority, parking in unauthorized locations or 
in locations reserved for other persons, or continuously in excess of 18 
hours without permission, or contrary to the direction of posted signs 
is prohibited. This section may be supplemented by the postmaster or 
installation head from time to time by the issuance and posting of 
specific traffic directives as may be required. When so issued and 
posted such directives shall have the same force and effect as if made a 
part hereof.
    (l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may 
carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either 
openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for 
official purposes.
    (m) Nondiscrimination. There must be no discrimination by 
segregation or otherwise against any person or persons because of race, 
color, religion, national origin, sex, age (persons 40 years of age or 
older are protected), reprisal (discrimination against a person for 
having filed or for having participated in the processing of an EEO 
complaint--29 CFR 1613.26l-262), or physical or mental handicap, in 
furnishing, or by refusing to furnish to such person or persons the use 
of any facility of a public nature, including all services, privileges, 
accommodations, and activities provided on postal property.
    (n) Conduct with regard to meetings of the Board of Governors. (1) 
Without the permission of the chairman no person may participate in, 
film, televise, or broadcast any portion of any meeting of the Board or 
any subdivision or committee of the Board. Any person may electronically 
record or photograph a meeting, as long as that action does not tend to 
impede or disturb the members of the Board in the performance of their 
duties, or members of the public while attempting to attend or observe 
a meeting.
    (2) Disorderly conduct, or conduct which creates loud or unusual 
noise, obstructs the ordinary use of entrances, foyers, corridors, 
offices, meeting rooms, elevators, stairways, or parking lots, or 
otherwise tends to impede or disturb the members of the Board in the 
performance of their duties, or members of the public while attempting 
to attend or observe a meeting of the Board or of any subdivision, or 
committee of the Board, is prohibited.
    (3) Any person who violates paragraph (n) (1) or (2) of this section 
may, in addition to being subject to the penalties prescribed in 
paragraph (p) of this section, be removed from and barred from 
reentering postal property during the meeting with respect to which the 
violation occurred.
    (4) A copy of the rules of this section governing conduct on postal 
property, including the rules of this paragraph appropriately 
highlighted, shall be posted in prominent locations at the public 
entrances to postal property and outside the meeting room at any meeting 
of the Board of Governors or of any subdivision or committee of the 
Board.
    (o) Depositing literature. Depositing or posting handbills, flyers, 
pamphlets, signs, poster, placards, or other literature, except official 
postal and other Governmental notices and announcements, on the grounds, 
walks, driveways, parking and maneuvering areas, exteriors of buildings 
and other structures, or on the floors, walls, stairs, racks, counters, 
desks, writing tables, window-ledges, or furnishings in interior public 
areas on postal premises, is prohibited. This prohibition does not apply 
to:
    (1) Posting notices on bulletin boards as authorized in 
Sec. 243.2(a) of this chapter;
    (2) Interior space assigned to tenants for their exclusive use;
    (3) Posting of notices by U.S. Government-related organizations such 
as the Inaugural Committee as defined in 36 U.S.C. 721.
    (p) Penalties and other law. (1) Alleged violations of these rules 
and regulations are heard, and the penalties prescribed herein are 
imposed, either in a Federal district court or by a Federal magistrate 
in accordance with applicable court rules. Questions regarding such 
rules should be directed to the regional counsel for the region 
involved.
    (2) Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and 
regulations in this section while on property under the charge and 
control of the Postal Service is subject to fine of not more than $50 or 
imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both. Nothing contained in 
these rules and regulations shall be construed to abrogate any other 
Federal laws or regulations of any State and local laws and regulations 
applicable to any area in which the property is situated.
    (q) Enforcement. (1) Members of the U.S. Postal Service security 
force shall exercise the powers of special policemen provided by 40 
U.S.C. 318 and shall be responsible for enforcing the regulations in 
this section in a manner that will protect Postal Service property.
    (2) Local postmasters and installation heads may, pursuant to 40 
U.S.C. 318b and with the approval of the chief postal inspector or his 
designee, enter into agreements with State and local enforcement 
agencies to insure that these rules and regulations are enforced in a 
manner that will protect Postal Service property.
    (3) Postal Inspectors, Office of Inspector General Criminal 
Investigators, and other persons designated by the Chief Postal 
Inspector may likewise enforce regulations in this section.
[37 FR 24346, Nov. 16, 1972, as amended at 38 FR 27824, Oct. 9, 1973; 41
FR 23955, June 14, 1976; 42 FR 17443, Apr. 1, 1977; 43 FR 38825, Aug.
31, 1978; 46 FR 898, Jan. 5, 1981. Redesignated and amended at 46 FR
34330, July 1, 1981; 47 FR 32113, July 26, 1982; 53 FR 29460, Aug. 5,
1988; 54 FR 20527, May 12, 1989; 57 FR 36903, Aug. 17, 1993; 57 FR
38443, Aug. 25, 1992; 63 FR 34600, June 25, 1998][/code]
 

JoeSparky

Centurion
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,621
Location
Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
imported post

(2) Local postmasters and installation heads may, pursuant to 40
U.S.C. 318b and with the approval of the chief postal inspector or his
designee, enter into agreements with State and local enforcement
agencies to insure that these rules and regulations are enforced in a
manner that will protect Postal Service property.

(3) Postal Inspectors, Office of Inspector General Criminal
Investigators, and other persons designated by the Chief Postal
Inspector may likewise enforce regulations in this section.


The above is clipped directly from your posting of the complete law.
It is the last 2 paragraphs.

Didn't quote the whole thing for space saving...

I bolded and underlined the delegation sections
 

Wirelesscto

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2009
Messages
50
Location
Delta Junction, Alaska, USA
imported post

JoeSparky wrote:
(2) Local postmasters and installation heads may, pursuant to 40
U.S.C. 318b and with the approval of the chief postal inspector or his
designee, enter into agreements with State and local enforcement
agencies to insure that these rules and regulations are enforced in a
manner that will protect Postal Service property.

(3) Postal Inspectors, Office of Inspector General Criminal
Investigators, and other persons designated by the Chief Postal
Inspector may likewise enforce regulations in this section.


The above is clipped directly from your posting of the complete law.
It is the last 2 paragraphs.

Didn't quote the whole thing for space saving...

I bolded and underlined the delegation sections

I agree they must enter into an agreement



I have tried to and also call the Capt in Fairbanks on this and as of this time he know of no agreement nor does either post master that took my calls from delta to fairbanks....



Now they do have in fairbanks a in lue of trasspass in place with Fairabnks PD for the private property cluase per the fairabanks website.



http://www.ci.fairbanks.ak.us/departments/police/documents/forms/TrespassLetterofConsent.pdf



but i am looking for the other agreements now!
 

Wirelesscto

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2009
Messages
50
Location
Delta Junction, Alaska, USA
imported post

JoeSparky wrote:
(2) Local postmasters and installation heads may, pursuant to 40
U.S.C. 318b and with the approval of the chief postal inspector or his
designee, enter into agreements with State and local enforcement
agencies to insure that these rules and regulations are enforced in a
manner that will protect Postal Service property.

(3) Postal Inspectors, Office of Inspector General Criminal
Investigators, and other persons designated by the Chief Postal
Inspector may likewise enforce regulations in this section.


The above is clipped directly from your posting of the complete law.
It is the last 2 paragraphs.

Didn't quote the whole thing for space saving...

I bolded and underlined the delegation sections

Plus you did not define official purpose as well I still trying to find that as well....



Brian
 

JoeSparky

Centurion
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,621
Location
Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
imported post

Wirelesscto wrote:
JoeSparky wrote:
(2) Local postmasters and installation heads may, pursuant to 40
U.S.C. 318b and with the approval of the chief postal inspector or his
designee, enter into agreements with State and local enforcement
agencies to insure that these rules and regulations are enforced in a
manner that will protect Postal Service property.

(3) Postal Inspectors, Office of Inspector General Criminal
Investigators, and other persons designated by the Chief Postal
Inspector may likewise enforce regulations in this section.


The above is clipped directly from your posting of the complete law.
It is the last 2 paragraphs.

Didn't quote the whole thing for space saving...

I bolded and underlined the delegation sections

Plus you did not define official purpose as well I still trying to find that as well....



Brian

Nor did I attempt to... good luck.

I suspect they will leave it that way so that they can say something like, If you are not EMPLOYED by the postal service NOTHING you do is "Official" in this context!

Joe
 

Wirelesscto

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2009
Messages
50
Location
Delta Junction, Alaska, USA
Isn't there a posting at every post office regarding firearms as well as a reference to the controlling code?


I checked at ours and on the info board inside the lobby no where near the door they do have 930 post but not in full just the front page leaving off the part that says exempt for lawfully purpose....

but then again I have many time seen lots of our locals in our po office carrying and picking up there mail... But we are lucky here people just dont care in this area for the most part...
 

Nanook

New member
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Messages
9
Location
Alaska
For all you legal beagles:

There is a federal statute which gives postal regulations the force of law. Current postal regulations forbid carry of weapons in a post office. Even if you didn't violate Title 18USC by carrying in a USPO, you would violate this other statute by breaking a postal regulation. And remember: Statutes always trump regulations.

I'll leave it to you guys to look up the statute which I am discussing, cuz I am too dadgum lazy to do it myself.
 
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