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My first LEO stop today.

jmelvin

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
2,195
Location
Lynchburg, Virginia, USA
The people you hire to represent your interests to your employer think you are capable to make correct decisions regarding the status of your employment, including holding your job or protesting workplace issues, but they don't believe that you are capable of peacefully carrying a tool to keep yourself safe? Sheesh if they are so worried about the mental capacity of the people they represent, perhaps they'd do well to have you all leave your employer's site and they should stay away from you all before the whole of you start harming each other. However if you may be trusted to peaceably protest without killing each other and harming the property of others why are you to be considered incapable of protecting your very own life? I'd continue to carry and I'd probably look for different people to represent my interests to an employer as they clearly don't think much of their customer.
 

Blk97F150

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
1,179
Location
Virginia
Tomorrow I plan on using my thigh rig so it's much more visible, but to use a bright orange sqiurt gun in the holster instead of my regular sidearm.

Why not just carry the real handgun but paint the tip of the barrel orange so that it looks like a toy? :rolleyes:




(disclaimer for those that can't 'read' sarcastic humor: Thats not a real suggestion & I'm NOT being serious)
 

Baked on Grease

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2011
Messages
629
Location
Sterling, Va.
I think I have to clarify a bit, my union wants me to not carry while picketing because it might cause bad publicity for the strike... Though at this point any publicity is worthwhile...

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Motofixxer

Regular Member
Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
965
Location
Somewhere over the Rainbow
So they think it might give bad publicity??? And???? What does that have to do with you and your personal actions on personal time in a public place. Where do they think their authority comes from to tell you what you can and can't do out in public? We all have opinions, but we can't go around forcing them on others against their will. I say if you feel comfortable carrying...then do it.
 
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Baked on Grease

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2011
Messages
629
Location
Sterling, Va.
The only thing they can do about it is to remove me from the union but current circumstances (dont know if it's law or contractual with the union) makes it so that if I have the same job title as a union guy working for the.company I get all th ev same benefits as a paying union member, even to th ev point where the union has to represent me in disputes. They just lose out on my 2% dues is all.

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t33j

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Messages
1,384
Location
King George, VA
The only thing they can do about it is to remove me from the union but current circumstances (dont know if it's law or contractual with the union) makes it so that if I have the same job title as a union guy working for the.company I get all th ev same benefits as a paying union member, even to th ev point where the union has to represent me in disputes. They just lose out on my 2% dues is all.

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Sooooo what's the problem? Looks like the only thing those 2% dues are doing is funding people who don't support your right to defend yourself.
 

Baked on Grease

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2011
Messages
629
Location
Sterling, Va.
Sooooo what's the problem? Looks like the only thing those 2% dues are doing is funding people who don't support your right to defend yourself.

They "might" have legal recourse to have me forcably removed from their picket lines as it could be construed that I am then an uninvited person to their demonstration... But I don't really know.

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altajava

Newbie
Joined
Oct 31, 2008
Messages
228
Location
Occupied Virginia, USA
I can't believe no one else caught this but, It is a really bad idea to announce to the world that there will be a firearm in your car and then announce to the world how to identify your self. Other than that sounds like you done good.
 

virginiatuck

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2009
Messages
787
Location
Loudoun County, Virginia, USA
The only thing they can do about it is to remove me from the union but current circumstances (dont know if it's law or contractual with the union) makes it so that if I have the same job title as a union guy working for the.company I get all th ev same benefits as a paying union member, even to th ev point where the union has to represent me in disputes. They just lose out on my 2% dues is all.

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That's state law. Title 40.1, Chapter 4. Labor Unions, Strikes, Etc.

Definitely recommended reading, especially for someone in your circumstance.


§ 40.1-59. Agreements or combinations declared unlawful.
Any agreement or combination between any employer and any labor union or labor organization whereby persons not members of such union or organization shall be denied the right to work for the employer, or whereby such membership is made a condition of employment or continuation of employment by such employer, or whereby any such union or organization acquires an employment monopoly in any enterprise, is hereby declared to be against public policy and an illegal combination or conspiracy.
 
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Tess

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2006
Messages
3,837
Location
Bryan, TX
They "might" have legal recourse to have me forcably removed from their picket lines as it could be construed that I am then an uninvited person to their demonstration... But I don't really know.

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I doubt it. They aren't on their property; they're on someone else's.

Do not bow to the union's anti-gun pressure -- that's my advice.
 

Toad

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2006
Messages
387
Location
, Virginia, USA
Good on you for asserting your Rights against the state! You should also assert them on the union.
If they are worried about getting a bad image from you carrying let them know that its to late. They already have a bad image by extorting a legal business entity, especially in right to work states (which all states should be), by appearing ungrateful to actually be employed in this economy. I'd say that Verizon should do the right thing and start tapping the massive pool of unemployed individuals eager to work and stop the bleeding, caused by the union infection, with 'scabs'! <soapbox off>
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
Sounds like you handled the police encounter well, BOG.

Don't forget to refuse consent to an encounter. Asking if you are free to leave is good, but I prefer to remove from the police the conversational initiative. If I refuse consent to the encounter at the outset, they had better have RAS to continue past my refused consent because I will find out later whether they had RAS, and I will make trouble for them or sue if there wasn't. Especially if they demand my identity past my refused consent to an encounter.

I like the logic of providing identity info verbally. Tactically sound if you don't know for sure whether you are required.

But, if you refuse consent to the encounter itself from the very, very beginning, then the onus is on the cops to have RAS to continue the encounter at all, much less demand identity info. If it turns out later they didn't have RAS, you've got them for an illegal seizure of your person, and its time for a formal complaint or lawsuit. And, if they made an identity demand without authority, you've got more you can add to the list of their transgressions.
 

Citizen

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Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
Baked on Grease,

Will you be sending a FOIA request for 911 call recordings and in-car text messaging to establish whether they had RAS to demand identity or detain you?

By the way, was this voluntary on your part? Did they use a commanding or demanding tone of voice? Did you feel free to walk away and ignore their inquiry?

Are you planning a formal written complaint or lawsuit for the identity [demand?]?
 

All American Nightmare

Regular Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
521
Location
Never Never Land
As some of you may know, CWA union employees who work for Verizon went strike on Sunday Aug. 7. Today I took my turn on the picket lines... and I refuse to be out in public un-armed, so I am currently walking while OC-ing, and writing this (isn't technology awesome?)

Some one that crossed the picket lines (management) called the local police about a man with a firearm. 3 marked squad cars and one unmarked (later found out that was the Chief of Police) came by just 20 mins ago.

I feel good about how I handled the encouhter. They asked for ID and I refused, stating that I am not driving a vehicle so am not required to show ID. I gave the officer my name and address... She tried to intimidate me into giving ID but steadfastly refused and restated my info. She tried to claim that while I had the right to carry, she neded to verify that I was not a convicted felon, as they cannot own/carry. I agreed that they cannot carry but insisted that I was within my rights as a private citizen.

While she ran the info, I had a lengthy conversation with the other officers about the strike. All in all they left mumbling something about not intimidating people.

I think I did well, though my heart was all aflutter the whole time. Made sure to carry my voice recorder wi th extra batteries today... Glad I did.

(edit: just now one of the managers came out to take my picture. Trying to say that the union will never let me do this if they knew. There are 3 union reps walking the line with me, all three already stated they might bring theirs tomorrow.)





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Why did you give your name and address? You did very well except for giving your name and address. I would have told the leo in a nice firm voice then ask to see their ID. You will calm down after a few encounters. Would you be willing to post the recording? (with your name and address redacted) My first encounter was a nightmare to say the least.
 

All American Nightmare

Regular Member
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
521
Location
Never Never Land
I was in Herndon at the time so it was the Herndon local police that showed up. I am not entirely sure if my state/locality requires me to identify myself at least verbally, so I did in this instance to be safe.


As an update: both my local 2222 president and the national president of CWA called near the end of my time on the picket lines. They wanted to press upon me to leave my gun home when I showed up tomorrow and to put my firearm in the trunk of the car today until I was done picketing. I told him that as soon as I have a legal, safe place to leave my firearm I will be sure to put it there. ... I did not bother to tell him that I rode my bike to day...

Tomorrow I plan on using my thigh rig so it's much more visible, but to use a bright orange sqiurt gun in the holster instead of my regular sidearm. Thankfully I will be picketing not 30 feet from my vehicle, so my sidearm won't be too far removed from my person.

Any thoughts on this plan, yay or nay?
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VA has no stop and ID law.
 

papa bear

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2010
Messages
2,222
Location
mayberry, nc
unfortunately in NC you can't legally carry near a picket line, even if you are not involved with the picket

i think you did well in your actions and hope you will make the right decision regarding your job, good luck
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
VA has no stop and ID law.

Well, yes. But, can you be as definitive about the town of Herndon with regard to a stop-and-identify ordinance? Can you also say definitively whether the police possessed facts, circumstances, or reports that would be later viewed by a court to not amount to RAS?*


*Brown vs Texas, a 4A case, requires RAS for a seizure of a person as a prerequisite to cops demanding identity and arresting for refusal if there is a statute compelling it. Meaning, before the cop can demand your identity he's gotta have a valid reasonable suspicion to seize you in the first place.

Hiibel vs 6th Judicial District Court examined the 5A self-incrimination angle on requiring someone to identify himself--the constitutionality of a statute requiring someone to identify themself from a 5A self-incrimination perspective. The court decided that a statute requiring identity disclosure by a police officer who possessed RAS for a detention did not violate the 5th Amendment. Hiibel pulls together several elements of the issue all into one opinion. Even though it is really only about one particular angle, it is a good place to pick up a lot of information on the subject all in one place.


Brown: http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0443_0047_ZO.html

Hiibel: http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-5554.ZO.html


Just for historical interest. Larry Hiibel's arrest is on YouTube. You can actually see the police dashcam video of the police encounter that led to the US Supreme Court case:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCOQzmzlmPo
 
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peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
You have a lot to think about!

I don't like the water gun idea under the circumstances but you need to decide that.

It's already been pointed out that you're walking a picket line in a right to work state and you've already gotten the attention of management.

Unions don't have many teeth in Virginia except in the coal areas where the members tend to be less polite:lol: The coal miners strikes are a favorite subject of mine and I've spent many enjoyable hours listening to stories from the older strikers tell about booby traps and dirty tricks.

The ideal solution would to just CC but you don't have a CHP and even if it weren't against board policy to suggest doing something illegal, I'd say not to because you've gotten the attention of the local cops.

The next best thing would be to just refuse to walk the line if you can't carry. Pack a lunch and sit outside the line and watch.

Or...you could just eat crow and leave it in the car. If you are not under the Union egis when the strike is over you will probably lose you job because you have been absent from work and not included in any amnesty provision in the new contract. There are a lot of members here that have to put their gun activism behind their employment. That again, is a decision you have to make yourself.

Just a parting thought. The term "Irish Broadsword" refers to two thin strips of wood that have had razor blades sandwiched in between. The blades were covered with tape and the strips of wood were used as a handle on their picket signs.
If violence broke out, it got interesting.

The moral is...sometimes it's best to not show all your cards.
 
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