My first LEO stop today.

[paramedic70002]

Simple solution.

To Union: "I open carry a gun ALL THE TIME. Do you want me on the line or not?"

I wonder since you're getting Union money, can they be considered your employer, and thus able to dictate your carry?

 

[Baked on Grease]

1. Are you going to post the digital audio of the entire encounter?

Lucky me I managed to start a fresh recording. The entire encounter is about 15 mins long so let me try to edit it down a bit. I can prolly get the important parts down to about 5 mins. I am on the line again now so later today I could probably get it for you.


Sent using tapatalk

 

[ProShooter]

Just a parting thought. The term "Irish Broadsword" refers to two thin strips of wood that have had razor blades sandwiched in between. The blades were covered with tape and the strips of wood were used as a handle on their picket signs.
If violence broke out, it got interesting.

The moral is...sometimes it's best to not show all your cards.

I think that item may run afoul of 18.2-308.

True nature disguised, razor, like kind weapon, etc.

 

[TFred]

I think that item may run afoul of 18.2-308.

True nature disguised, razor, like kind weapon, etc.

That was my thought exactly... a truly concealed weapon!

TFred

 

[ManInBlack]

Do you have probable suspicion that I am a felon or otherwise prohibited from carrying a firearm?
You can't just walk up to someone legally going about their business and demand ID because he may be doing something illegal.

Exactly. It's not like you see the local tax-feeders hanging out around the polling stations to make sure voters aren't convicted felons.

 

[peter nap]

I think that item may run afoul of 18.2-308.

True nature disguised, razor, like kind weapon, etc.

Scheeshe.....It was an bit of historical trivia to reinforce an idea, not a suggestion. I doubt the striking Irish cared what it was in violation of.
It's like striking coal miners using cordless drills to put pole barn nails in the road (A tactic I've heard has been successfully used against dog hunters). I'd never recommend such a thing, just mention it as trivia.:uhoh:

My original thought was that telecommunication Unions were too dull to require much protection, but now that Verizon is accusing them of sabotage, including cutting fiber optic lines.....that may change.

Time to break out the Matewan DVD

 

[smn]

No man should be forced to surrender his Second Amendment rights as a prerequisite to exercising his First Amendment rights.

Carry on!

 

[jmelvin]

No man should be forced to surrender his Second Amendment rights as a prerequisite to exercising his First Amendment rights.

Carry on!

Note that neither US Constitutional Amendment is the source of these rights. These are simply protections against government intrusion on pre-existing rights that simply exist with life itself. Thus you don't have 1st or 2nd Amendment rights.

 

[peter nap]

No man should be forced to surrender his Second Amendment rights as a prerequisite to exercising his First Amendment rights.

Carry on!

No one can be forced to surrender their RIGHTS, smn....That has to be voluntary, BUT, there are times to beat brush and kick downfalls, and there are times to sit and watch trails. Both produce dinner.

 

[smn]

Note that neither US Constitutional Amendment is the source of these rights. These are simply protections against government intrusion on pre-existing rights that simply exist with life itself. Thus you don't have 1st or 2nd Amendment rights.

Agreed. Our First and Second Amendment rights are enumerated for quick reference. Being prepared is the first step in case something bad happens. It's not as if a violent act has never occurred at an "organized" demonstration. The union is using it's First Amendment rights to protest and the OP is lawfully exercising his Second Amendment rights on his way to, while at, and after leaving the protest.

 

[Glockster]

VA has no stop and ID law.

But there are cities with those laws. Still on the books.

 

[virginiatuck]

Herndon Code of Ordinances

But there are cities with those laws. Still on the books.

Town of Herndon, Code of Ordinances

I didn't find anything for Herndon.

 

[KBCraig]

She tried to intimidate me into giving ID but steadfastly refused and restated my info. She tried to claim that while I had the right to carry, she neded to verify that I was not a convicted felon, as they cannot own/carry.

Others have given responses to this already, but I thought of a new one. Okay, it's crude and rude and not appropriate for all venues, but...

"How do you know I'm not a rapist? Would you like a DNA sample? Where do you want it?"

 

[All American Nightmare]

But there are cities with those laws. Still on the books.

Do you have a list?

 

[TFred]

Do you have a list?

There is no list. There are over 130 counties and independent cities in Virginia.

Someone who has a bit more free time than I do would be doing us all a big favor to set up a web page that would allow for us to track local ordinances in each of these jurisdictions regarding both Stop and Identify as well as Fingerprinting required for CHPs. (If everyone could report the answers for their own home jurisdictions, it wouldn't be that hard to compile the information into a central location.)

We've been lamenting the fact that there is no list for this data for quite some time.

Here's a list of the jurisdictions.

Interestingly, when it comes to the fingerprinting, some of the smaller jurisdictions share General District Courts, and some cities located inside counties have differing laws on the fingerprints. So that means the judge would have to look at whether the applicant is in the city or the county to determine if the fingerprints were needed or not.

When you consider the nightmare of tracking just these relatively minor issues, the indescribable value of 15.2-915 becomes overwhelmingly obvious.

TFred

 

[Sesrun]

Here are a few I was able to find...

Arlington County Sec 17-13 (c) http://www.arlingtonva.us/departments/CountyBoard/CountyCode/file74515.pdf
City of Manassas Sec 78-311 (c) http://library.municode.com/HTML/10...OR_CH78OFMIPR_ARTVIIOFAGPEOR_DIV1GE_S78-311LO
City of Norfolk Sec 29-73.1 http://library.municode.com/HTML/10121/level2/COCI_CH29OFIS.html#COCI_CH29OFIS_S29-73.1SUIDTH
City of Roanoke Sec 23-2 http://library.municode.com/HTML/11...E.html#COCI_CH23PO_ARTIINGE_S23-2REIDSEUPREOF
City of Salem Sec 58-23 (c) http://library1.municode.com:80/def...2f64f506daae1d8fbb975cb7e5d613&infobase=11522
Stafford County Sec 17-7 (c) http://library.municode.com/HTML/11...tml#COCO_CH17OFIS_S17-7LOFAGINAADLAENOFUNCECI
Virginia Beach Sec 29-73.1 http://library.municode.com/HTML/10...IMIOF.html#CO_CH23OF_ARTIMIOF_S23-7.1PRIDPOOF

(Note: I am now working on a list for all 134 counties/cities as well as townships that I come across.)

For Stop & ID reference http://www.www.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?78298-Stop-and-ID
User's quotes at the bottom are in regards to the name and address being given and define the common law regarding Stop and ID.
(Quotes below are from the aforementioned thread)

The wonders of the internet. I found it on the Attorney General's website. Here is an excerpt:

"Law-enforcement officer conducting lawful stop to investigate alleged criminal activity may not arrest for obstruction of justice suspect who refuses to identify himself to officer."

You can read the rest of the Attorney General's opinion, complete with his theory and cites, here:

http://www.vaag.com/Opinions/2002opns/02-082.pdf



Without a valid stop-and-identify law, the cop cannot arrest for refusing to identify. Based on the AG's opinion, the cop cannot arrest for obstruction for refusing to identify. If both are true, it would seem to throw the arrestee's fight possibly into the realm of using reasonable force to resist false arrest, a right citizens still retain as of a few years ago when Commonwealth vs Hill was written.


I wonder if the defense attorney knows all these angles.

I'm also very curious about the 4th Amendment angles. There is a number of ways the 4A issues could play out depending on the exact facts. Was the caller anonymous? Did the cop first pat-down the arrestee to see if he was armed (since there was no mention of a gun found on the arrestee, I assume the cop didn't see one when he rolled up)?

Stafford’s ID requirement falls under the loitering ordinance. Specifically Sec 17-7 subsection c http://library.municode.com/index.aspx?clientId=11500&stateId=46&stateName=Virginia

(c) It shall be unlawful for any person at a public place or place open to the public to refuse to identify himself, by name and address, at the request of a uniformed law-enforcement officer or a properly identified law-enforcement officer not in uniform, if the surrounding circumstances are such as to indicate to a reasonable man that the public safety requires such identification.

(e) Any person violating any provision of this section shall be guilty of a class 1 misdemeanor.

Unfortunately it doesn’t seem to imply that RAS necessary outside of being in a publicly accessible place. Just my opinion…..

link directly to section - http://library.municode.com/HTML/11500/level2/CODEB_C17.html#CODEB_C17_s17-7

Others state that Virginia is a Dillon Rule state where without an ID statute would make enforcement questionable at best.

The Dillon rule is really simple. No corporate entity, whether a business corporation or a municipal corporation, can exceed the authority granted by its charter or by general law. Any attempt to do so is called an "ultra vires" (beyond the power) and is a void act as a matter of law. Not "voidable" or "subject to rescission", but void, as if it had never happened. A local ordinance that exceeds the powers granted to the county, city, or town (or homeowners' association, for that matter) cannot be enforced, because it does not exist.

Back to the original point of the thread: By statute in Virginia, a police officer or sheriff's deputy where there is no police department has all the powers of a constable at common law. And, at common law, the constable had the power to stop anyone AT NIGHT merely to demand that they state their name and their address. There was no power to demand any identification during the daytime and unless the cop has "reasonable suspicion" sufficient to detain a person on other grounds, there is no such power today. The U.S. Supreme Court has specifically held that the requirement that a person identify himself only requires that he truthfully state his name and address. Unless you're operating a motor vehicle in Virginia, there is no need to show an operator's license. (Carrying a concealed firearm requires presentation of a government-issued photo id and the CHP, but does not require any particular identification certificate).

 

[Neplusultra]

(edit: just now one of the managers came out to take my picture. Trying to say that the union will never let me do this if they knew. There are 3 union reps walking the line with me, all three already stated they might bring theirs tomorrow.)

LOL. :lol:

 

[Repeater]

Here's a thought ...

Why not find a (brave?) patron to introduce a bill to repeal all local 'Stop & ID' ordinances?

 

[jmelvin]

Why not find a (brave?) patron to introduce a bill to repeal all local 'Stop & ID' ordinances?

Unfortunately we have goons like Scott Garrett (R, Lynchburg) who have tried to require one at the state level. Fortunately I believe it was killed with efficiency.

 

[RetiredOC]

I just watched a video earlier this morning of verizon picket line people condoning violence against the people who are taking their spots to make money to feed their family. If I'm going to work and become surrounded by a mob with armed members and I am getting threats of violence I will be contacting the police and possibly drawing to the low ready till I get to a safe place.


What I am saying is, be careful what group you're associating yourself with, especially while you're visibly armed. You may not be threatening people, but perception is everything. Stay safe.