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NC LE using portable fingerprinting units during traffic stops

Firearms Iinstuctor

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Yeah... I got a ticket for 66 in a 55 the Thanksgiving before last, I have this sneaking suspicion that it won't show up as an arrest.

I want to see the court's reaction when an indigent person is arrested for the crime of forgetting his driving license (a $10 fine in GA) asks for a court-appointed lawyer to which (if I'm not mistaken) he is entitled to if he cannot afford one per Miranda v. State of Arizona

I knew a fellow who requested a jury trial for a 10 dollar fine. to get a jury trial in Wis. for civil cases one has to pay a non refundable jury fee at the time it was 75.00.

The person involved paid the fee the DA then dismissed the 10 dollar citation.

I sure the person requesting the jury figured he had won.
 

WalkingWolf

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Odd, I was under the impression that arrests were part of the NCIC database. If a traffic stop/ticket is an arrest as claimed, why isn't the arrest and conviction in the national database instead of some random county clerk's office?

Booth shot Lincoln, yet he was never entered in the database. The database has nothing to do with it, even though when your DL is run current traffic convictions ARE listed. It is not uncommon in Texas for a traffic offender to be taken to jail, in fact I believe somewhere on OCDO there is a thread on it.
 
B

Bikenut

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I knew a fellow who requested a jury trial for a 10 dollar fine. to get a jury trial in Wis. for civil cases one has to pay a non refundable jury fee at the time it was 75.00.

The person involved paid the fee the DA then dismissed the 10 dollar citation.

I sure the person requesting the jury figured he had won.
If it was a matter of principle then he did win even if he lost money.
 
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gutshot II

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If it was a matter of principle then he did win even if he lost money.

Correct. Matters of "principle" often involve a financial sacrifice. Sometimes they involve a physical and/or emotional sacrifice. If they were easy and without any cost, they would not be matters of "principle". They would just be the easiest, least expensive alternative.
 

Fallschirjmäger

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Booth shot Lincoln, yet he was never entered in the database. The database has nothing to do with it, even though when your DL is run current traffic convictions ARE listed. It is not uncommon in Texas for a traffic offender to be taken to jail, in fact I believe somewhere on OCDO there is a thread on it.
Seriously?
1) Lincoln was assassinated in 1865; the NCIC database wasn't operational until over Two Hundred Years Later. There would be no reason to enter past events of deceased individuals into a database. I dare say Cain's murder of Able isn't in the NCIC database either.
rolleyes.png


2. The key word is "current", in every state of the Union, traffic convictions/points are removed on the basis of time. I've yet to hear of an arrest becoming a non-arrest just because a couple of months have passed.

3. Yes, there are traffic offenses for which one may/will be taken to jail - vehicular manslaughter and DUI/DWI come to mind, but I don't think parking violations meet the same criteria.
 

WalkingWolf

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Seriously?
1) Lincoln was assassinated in 1865; the NCIC database wasn't operational until over Two Hundred Years Later. There would be no reason to enter past events of deceased individuals into a database. I dare say Cain's murder of Able isn't in the NCIC database either.
rolleyes.png


2. The key word is "current", in every state of the Union, traffic convictions/points are removed on the basis of time. I've yet to hear of an arrest becoming a non-arrest just because a couple of months have passed.

3. Yes, there are traffic offenses for which one may/will be taken to jail - vehicular manslaughter and DUI/DWI come to mind, but I don't think parking violations meet the same criteria.

That is the line you set, according to you if a crime is not in the database it is not a crime. Apparently they unlawfully imprisoned Al Capone. We are not discussing parking tickets, stop with the BS, it is foolish. We are discussing violating laws, though most times minor laws, they are crimes, and as such is it an arrest when caught, detained, and punished. At one time a person in most states had to post bail, or surrender their license for even minor traffic offenses, and they were fingerprinted. Milwaukee for years required a thumb print on a citation at the time it was issued, before the current technology. If you don't want to be treated like a criminal, then don't break the law. Most traffic offenses are intentional, I have no sympathy for those that violate the law, minor, or major.

Forgot to ad, in many cities if a vehicle, emphasis on vehicle, is cited for parking violations it will be booted. You see the parking ticket is not written handed to a person, it is usually left on the vehicle. The owner is responsible no matter who is driving. Parking violations are usually nothing more than petty, or civil offenses.

In Texas you can be arrested for almost any traffic violation— even minor traffic violations that are not punishable by jail time. Texas law gives police wide discretion in making arrests for traffic violations, and the United States Supreme Court even upheld a Texas officer’s authority under the federal constitution to arrest a person for a minor traffic violation punishable only by a fine1. So, there is ample support in the law giving Texas law enforcement the right to make arrests during a traffic stop for simple traffic offenses.


https://saputo.law/texas-criminal-law/arrestable-traffic-violations/

Let me also point out that if Traffic was not a crime the police could not even stop traffic offenders. The police have to have one of two things to make a stop, RAS, or PC, without one of those two they cannot detain legally. This is covered in the US constitution, it is up to federal, and local laws to limit their authority to handle different crimes.

Police can arrest and handcuff people even for minor offenses punishable only by a fine, the Supreme Court said today in the case of a motorist arrested and jailed for not wearing a seat belt.

Ruling 5-4 in a case that could affect anyone who drives a car, the justices said such an arrest does not violate the Constitution's Fourth Amendment protection against unreasonable seizures.

Police generally can arrest anyone they see breaking the law, the court said as it barred a Texas woman from suing the officer who handcuffed her and took her to jail.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=93495
 
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OC for ME

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What prompts the finger printing during any particular traffic stop? What prompts a cop to not finger print the arrestee.

We now know that in NC a photo ID is not a suitable method to confirm a citizen's identification.

What if it is a fake ID? Then are not all DLs fake until proven otherwise?

If a criminal is a criminal, regardless of the crime, then all traffic stops (moving and non-moving violations) must include a finger printing and that biometric data must be retained as the law provides.
 

solus

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What prompts the finger printing during any particular traffic stop? What prompts a cop to not finger print the arrestee.

We now know that in NC a photo ID is not a suitable method to confirm a citizen's identification.

What if it is a fake ID? Then are not all DLs fake until proven otherwise?

If a criminal is a criminal, regardless of the crime, then all traffic stops (moving and non-moving violations) must include a finger printing and that biometric data must be retained as the law provides.

as pointed out in post 21, it appears several WI LE entities believe ALL their community’s citizens they run across during traffic encounters are scofflaws since the LEs fingerprint during their stops as established policy!
 
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color of law

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A traffic stop is not a Terry stop, there is already PC to a crime, though a minor crime. IT IS an arrest in most states, including NC. A person may be fingerprinted for any arrest, it is part of the identification process. A common stop such as in Terry I believe it is unnecessary, but when there is a clear arrest it is legal.

When committing crimes people should be expected to treated like they committed a crime. Traffic crimes kill more people in this country than any other crime.
The usual traffic stop is more analogous to a so-called "Terry stop," see Terry v. Ohio, 392 U. S. 1 (1968), than to a formal arrest. No more is implied by this analogy than that most traffic stops resemble, in duration and atmosphere, the kind of brief detention authorized in Terry. This does not suggest that a traffic stop supported by probable cause may not exceed the bounds set by the Fourth Amendment on the scope of a Terry stop. I suggest you read Berkemer v. McCarty, 468 U. S. 420, 439 (1984)
 

WalkingWolf

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The usual traffic stop is more analogous to a so-called "Terry stop," see Terry v. Ohio, 392 U. S. 1 (1968), than to a formal arrest. No more is implied by this analogy than that most traffic stops resemble, in duration and atmosphere, the kind of brief detention authorized in Terry. This does not suggest that a traffic stop supported by probable cause may not exceed the bounds set by the Fourth Amendment on the scope of a Terry stop. I suggest you read Berkemer v. McCarty, 468 U. S. 420, 439 (1984)

You need to take that up with SCOTUS, they have already ruled on the subject.
 

WalkingWolf

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What prompts the finger printing during any particular traffic stop? What prompts a cop to not finger print the arrestee.

We now know that in NC a photo ID is not a suitable method to confirm a citizen's identification.

What if it is a fake ID? Then are not all DLs fake until proven otherwise?

If a criminal is a criminal, regardless of the crime, then all traffic stops (moving and non-moving violations) must include a finger printing and that biometric data must be retained as the law provides.

Very few laws have officer mandates, a sheriff could easily decide nobody get fingerprinted in jail. It would affect state, and federal funding but he/she can do it. Be thankful that most traffic stops the person stopped is treated with respect, most not all. How many of members throwing a hissy fit willingly got fingerprinted for your carry permission cards?

Hell, some cities, and states are not only ignoring immigration laws, but interfering with them. The fact is they do not have to enforce them, though interfering is a crime.

Ooops I fogot

[video=youtube;BzMCjFQIefg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzMCjFQIefg[/video]
 
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OC for ME

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The question remains unanswered. If it is for officer safety, as is claimed in the news item, then every stop must include a finger printing, for officer safety. The news item seems to indicate that in NC a traffic stop is not a arrest.
But (SBI Special Agent in Charge Wyatt) Pettengill says if someone declines to provide identification, they could be arrested.
Misspoke, likely, but in the mind of this SBI agent there is a distinction.[COLOR=#666666 !important][FONT=&quot][/FONT][/COLOR]
 

WalkingWolf

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The question remains unanswered. If it is for officer safety, as is claimed in the news item, then every stop must include a finger printing, for officer safety. The news item seems to indicate that in NC a traffic stop is not a arrest.Misspoke, likely, but in the mind of this SBI agent there is a distinction.[COLOR=#666666 !important][FONT=&quot][/FONT][/COLOR]

SCOTUS has made it clear, unless there are state laws that prohibit taking into custody, and transporting. Several lawyers have made it clear, as well as law professors. At the very least it is a custodial detention(temporary arrest), SCOTUS has given LE the choice to cuff, stuff, and transport a traffic law breaker to jail, where they will be fingerprinted. By force if necessary, and then the added charge of obstructing will probably be added. This has been done in Texas as long as I can remember, other states are just taking their clues from Texas.

The military has been using federal marshals, and state/local police for civilians for some time. Depending on the attitude the violator could be cuffed, and stuffed. It is something people are going to have to accept, because it is legal, and constitutional. Most police officers are honest, so if you don't break the law there will not be fingerprinting.
 

mnrobitaille

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Kahlotus, WA
Is anyone concerned about this if it's limited to drivers who are operating the vehicle at the time of a traffic stop?

My first reaction was concern about demanding ID and/or fingerprints from passengers, who are not legally seized during a traffic stop.

If there is probable cause present due to actions/inactions of passengers, the passengers can also be detained for investigative purposes.

Unfortunately they are on a break until January 5th, but Live PD on A&E has been a valuable resource to understanding the procedures that law enforcement uses.

Several times on there I have seen a vehicle containing 1 driver & multiple passengers being detained in order to conduct an investigation due to marijuana smell or a firearm in a location not where it should have been.
 
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