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ND at gun show in Sandy

solus

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Agreed. My initial argument and your initial objection were before this was claimed.
mac the story changed from buyer unintentional to buyer purposely put a load mag into the firearm...

just saying...

ipse
 
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utbagpiper

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Agreed. My initial argument and your initial objection were before this was claimed.
Yes. And the only new info is that the buyer inserted the loaded mag. The initi report was that he racked the slide, then dropped the magazine and pulled the trigger.

While slightlyess egregious than inserting the mag himself, racking the slide and dropping the mag before plong the trigger indicates more than just pushing a single button.

Again, unlike an RC that might be ignorantly assumed to be a harmless toy, every mentally competent adult in this nation knows firearms pose a real risk. Handling one without training is, itself negligent.

Rmember, we all support the right of idiot buyer to buy a gun and ammo without any required training or background check. When he gets home, and starts playing with his new toy before getting any training and has an ND, that is on him alone. Not the FFL, not the clerk at Walmart, not his neighbor who suggested everyone should own a gun.

I'm among the first to point out here that we should not eat our own over an ND. I stand by that and am glad there are no criminal charges in this case.

But I also believe we need to be sure to lay accountability appropriately. When a 14 year old woth no record of mental illness or violence picks up a gun and goes on a killing spree, it isn't the fault of the parents for not keeping the gun in a safe, inside a vault, inside a locked room. Fifteen year olds know murder is wrong.

Forty something year old men know guns are dangerous and should not be handled without proper training. Those who have had training and know how to handle a gun know full well not to rack a slide and pull a trigger.

Seller messed up.

So to did the buyer.

Neither one gets a pass from me. But one of them actually pulled the trigger.

The witness info more fully condemns the buyer. But he was plenty culpable even on initial reports.

Best regards.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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Glock SOP. There are more 'must do' procedures, but still..........
Yup. Anyone who knows how to disassemble a Glock knows to check, double check, and check again that the firearm is un loaded and to only pull the trigger when pointed in a safe location. A concrete floor at a crowded gun show is not a sage location and especially not at a low angle.

Charles
 

JoeSparky

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Why does a seller have ammo available to be loaded in the first place.

Ban the seller and cite the buyer.
As was earlier mentioned on this thread, I believe (but it could have been on a UTAH specific forum), the prospective buyer requested the zip tie be removed by the seller (done) then BUYER pulled a loaded mag from his pocket and inserted same into the firearm, rack the slide, and finally pulled the trigger.

ONLY fail I can give the seller here is for cutting the zip tie!
 
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Firearms Iinstuctor

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As was earlier mentioned on this thread, I believe (but it could have been on a UTAH specific forum), the prospective buyer requested the zip tie be removed by the seller (done) then BUYER pulled a loaded mag from his pocket and inserted same into the firearm, rack the slide, and finally pulled the trigger.

ONLY fail I can give the seller here is for cutting the zip tie!
One thing we might be missing if the buyer actual pulled a loaded mag out and inserted into the gun and racked the slide.

Was it fired on purpose!

Anti's have been known to lie cheat and do other acts to give firearms a bad name.

I would like to know the back ground of the "buyer"
 

Grapeshot

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One thing we might be missing if the buyer actual pulled a loaded mag out and inserted into the gun and racked the slide.

Was it fired on purpose!

Anti's have been known to lie cheat and do other acts to give firearms a bad name.

I would like to know the back ground of the "buyer"
Interesting point, but I think that the seller/FFL would have likely observed that AND reported it.
 

xd shooter

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Allow me to fictionalize an anecdote to illustrate my point with something unrelated to firearms, where our expertise may give us bias.

I've seen people fly remote-controlled aircraft. It looks cool. I want to get in to that. So I go to a "model airplane show" where there are hundreds of vendors selling model airplanes, accessories, and of course, beef jerky. I eventually see a model plane on a table with others that catches my eye. "I'd like to see that one," I tell the man on the other side of the table. He's wearing a T-shirt with an "I Fly or Die" anti-government slogan. He's cool, and our conversation quickly convinces me he's experienced in this field. He tells me that the model I'm looking at is a good one, with a very smooth throttle response. I don't know what that means yet, but the control on the table next to it has a lever labeled "throttle." So I push it to see for myself.

Next thing I know, the damn airplane takes off and injures an bystander. People start shouting at me. You see, I didn't know there was a universal model airplane safety rule that says you NEVER touch a throttle lever without the airplane on the field and ready for takeoff. It doesn't matter that it's in a static display and you have every reason to trust the seller that it isn't turned on and charged. Sure, the vendor took some heat and got kicked out, but I'm still trying to figure out how any of this was my fault. All the model airplane experts are blaming me for the injury.

You don't know what you don't know. The vendor was NEGLIGENT. The potential buyer may have been just ignorant. There is a huge difference.
If the battery was installed and connected, the transmitter and receiver both turned on, then yes, the vendor would be negligent for having an armed model airplane just sitting there waiting for an unsuspecting individual to push the throttle.

However, if the potential buyer connected the battery, turned on the transmitter and receiver, THEN pushed the throttle up, is it still the vendors fault?

Did the potential buyer install the loaded magazine? Or was it already in the weapon, sitting on the table? If the buyer installed the loaded magazine, they are culpable in this matter. If the magazine was already in the weapon, I would suggest BOTH were negligent, the seller for obvious reasons, but also the buyer for not clearing it first. Yes, they may have been unaware of the need to ensure any weapon is cleared before handling it, and it's a hard way to learn that lesson, but they pulled the trigger.
 

utbagpiper

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Why does a seller have ammo available to be loaded in the first place.

Ban the seller and cite the buyer.
Under which Utah (or federal statute) would you cite the buyer?

We are discussing an incident in Utah, and doing so within a Utah specific sub-forum.

The media reports indicate the operator of the show chose to ban both "for life". That is a private decision and seems not inappropriate to me, even if it might be practically impossible to actually ban someone from entering the show as a regular ticket holder for very long.

In contrast, "citing" someone is a government action and requires a pre-existing criminal statute. I'm wondering which one (or more), in particular, you think are appropriate in a case such as this where stupidity doesn't actually result in any serious injuries or property damage.

I believe in holding folks responsible for their conduct. But, I don't believe in throwing fellow pro-RKBA folks to the wolves for every mistake that makes the news. Private sanctions are one thing. Criminal penalties can be quite severe (or fairly minor). I wonder which you have in mind.

This is assuming a stupid, but innocent mistake. If there is the slightest evidence the ND was deliberate, I'll be all in favor of finding every criminal statute that might apply and seeing which ones might stick.

Charles
 

solus

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you are right mate, you can not punish those Utahians who are stuck on stupid nor violate Utah's private enterprise policies put in place by those Utah organizers, e.g., such as ensuring citizens carrying firearms into the venue by having them inspected to ensure the firearm are not loaded, the firearm will be plastic tied, etc., similar to other Utah's private enterprises policies on firearms, such as Costco's membership agreement regarding carrying in their facilities.

ipse
 

Grapeshot

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you are right mate, you can not punish those Utalhians who are stuck on stupid nor violate Utah's private enterprise policies put in place by those Utah organizers, e.g., such as ensuring citizens carrying firearms into the venue by having them inspected to ensure the firearm are not loaded, the firearm will be plastic tied, etc., similar to other Utah's private enterprises policies on firearms, such as Costco's membership agreement regarding carrying in their facilities.

ipse
These conditions/policies are not limited to affecting just the people from the mountains (Utes and Utilians?) Residents of other states suffer these too.
 

solus

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These conditions/policies are not limited to affecting just the people from the mountains (Utes and Utilians?) Residents of other states suffer these too.
grape, you are absolutely correct other state's citizens also suffer, however, i was replying directly to the mate's statement in his last post, quote: We are discussing an incident in Utah, and doing so within a Utah specific sub-forum. unquote therefore ensured my response was specific to the state sub-forum i was visiting.

ipse
 

utbagpiper

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These conditions/policies are not limited to affecting just the people from the mountains (Utes and Utilians?) Residents of other states suffer these too.

Utes are an American Indian tribe for whom the State is named. The feds disliked the Mormon's preferred name of "Deseret" (a word from the Book of Mormon meaning "honeybee").

A resident of Utah is known as a "Utahn"; Plural is "Utahns".

Go back a couple of decades and the federal government's official terms put an "a" between the "h" and the "n" for "Utahan" and "Utahans". But Utahns have never cared for that spelling and a couple of decades ago our congressional delegation got the official spelling for federal purposes changed to match local preference.

This is a case of "man bites dog" being newsworthy. As I noted in a prior post, we have about 6 of these shows a year along the Wasatch Front (our largest urban area where the bulk of our population lives). I have no idea how many thousand persons visit each show. But they are not small events. Utah RKBA folks are collectively aware of about 3 NDs over the last 8 or so years. Upwards of 50 shows over 8 years, 3 NDs, no serious injuries. Not a perfect record. But not shabby. One of those discharges was an LEO pulling a firearm out of a bag. Another was a dealer objecting to zip tying his gun because it was loaded and he proved how unloaded it was. One ND is now attributable to a private citizen attending the show as a buyer. There appears to be some question of whether the seller had a loaded mag available or whether the buyer brought a loaded mag with him.

In quoting my personal troll, you've revealed to me that he is once again engaging in personal attacks because he disagrees with my perfectly legal conduct regarding private anti-gun policies in Utah. I suspect his choice of words to describe residents of Utah is also a deliberate attempt to insult in some way. I thought such personal attacks were no longer welcome in the publicly viewable areas of this forum. His entire post is clearly aimed at me personally. It certainly adds nothing to the facts of the discussion. Why is he allowed to do this with such impunity?

I doubt a single post he's made to this Utah specific thread has added anything of value to the discussion. He certainly has no facts to add.

Charles
 
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Grapeshot

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These conditions/policies are not limited to affecting just the people from the mountains (Utes and Utilians?) Residents of other states suffer these too.
grape, you are absolutely correct other state's citizens also suffer, however, i was replying directly to the mate's statement in his last post, quote: We are discussing an incident in Utah, and doing so within a Utah specific sub-forum. unquote therefore ensured my response was specific to the state sub-forum i was visiting.

ipse
I was not correcting you, but adding to the prior reply.

BTW - in searching for a term to describe people in/from Utah, I find several variants and did not note that any of them were considered insulting. So do not think your term was an intentional negative.
 
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OC for ME

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Under which Utah (or federal statute) would you cite the buyer?

We are discussing an incident in Utah, and doing so within a Utah specific sub-forum.

The media reports indicate the operator of the show chose to ban both "for life". That is a private decision and seems not inappropriate to me, even if it might be practically impossible to actually ban someone from entering the show as a regular ticket holder for very long.

In contrast, "citing" someone is a government action and requires a pre-existing criminal statute. I'm wondering which one (or more), in particular, you think are appropriate in a case such as this where stupidity doesn't actually result in any serious injuries or property damage.

I believe in holding folks responsible for their conduct. But, I don't believe in throwing fellow pro-RKBA folks to the wolves for every mistake that makes the news. Private sanctions are one thing. Criminal penalties can be quite severe (or fairly minor). I wonder which you have in mind.

This is assuming a stupid, but innocent mistake. If there is the slightest evidence the ND was deliberate, I'll be all in favor of finding every criminal statute that might apply and seeing which ones might stick.

Charles
Possibly the below.

Title 76 Chapter 10 Part 5 Section 508
(1)(a) A person may not discharge any kind of dangerous weapon or firearm:
(vii) without written permission to discharge the dangerous weapon from the owner or person in charge of the property within 600 feet of:
(A) a house, dwelling, or any other building; or

https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title76/Chapter10/76-10-S508.html?v=C76-10-S508_2014040320140513

A hefty citation (fine) and not the penalty as described in the statute/code.

If a citizen will not observe the four firearm safety rules as advocated for by Jeff Cooper then there should be a penalty to remind him of the consequences of violating any one, or more, of those four simple rules. A lifetime banning from a gun show is a extremely lenient "punishment"...in my opinion it is not a punishment at all.

I do not believe in innocent mistakes where firearms and firearm safety is concerned. Relying on dumb luck is not how we should hope to avoid injuring/killing a fellow citizen, nor avoid a state sanction if we discharge a firearm "unintentionally."

Owning a gun does not make you pro-RKBA...there are liberals own guns and they work very hard to have your gun removed from you.
 
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