color of law
Accomplished Advocate
Of course if you are a Second Amendment Foundation member you can already carry in Post Offices. See post 59 above.
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Open Carrying on Postal Property
- Thread starter color of law
- Start date
Of course if you are a Second Amendment Foundation member you can already carry in Post Offices. See post 59 above.
user
Accomplished Advocate
My property law professor used to yell "Streets and alleys! Streets and alleys!" to remind us that the English language doesn't have to be in the code - there is no statute in Virginia defining either street or alley, but everyone knows what they are. Seems to me that "federal installation" could be a subset or synonym for "federal facility". I'd be embarrassed to argue that it is not.
user
Accomplished Advocate
Anyone here ever heard of the "unconstitutional conditions doctrine"? In theory, you can't be required to waive Constitutional rights as a condition of the use of the same facilities everyone else may use, e.g., post offices, highway "welcome centers", government offices, etc.
Board of Comm'rs, Wabaunsee Cty. v. Umbehr, 518 U.S. 668 (1996)
Koontz v. St. Johns River Water Management Dist., 570 U.S. ___ 111447 (2013)
Simona Grossi, The Waiver of Constitutional Rights, 60 Hou. L. Rev. 1021 (2023).
Board of Comm'rs, Wabaunsee Cty. v. Umbehr, 518 U.S. 668 (1996)
Koontz v. St. Johns River Water Management Dist., 570 U.S. ___ 111447 (2013)
Simona Grossi, The Waiver of Constitutional Rights, 60 Hou. L. Rev. 1021 (2023).
KBCraig
Regular Member
18 USC 930 (g) (1) helpfully tells us exactly what a "federal facility" is for the purposes of § 930:
(g)As used in this section:
(1)The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.
"Federal installation" could not be twisted to meet that definition.
user
Accomplished Advocate
All federal facilities are federal installations; not all federal installations are federal facilities for the purpose of that statute. If you don't know what "federal" means, or what "installation" means, perhaps you might consider enrolling in an "English as a second language" class.
user
Accomplished Advocate
Here's my favorite argument, never used as near as I can tell:
The Second Amendment to the Constitution is just that, an amendment. It is not simply another clause tacked on for good measure. The function of an amendment is to amend, to improve by change, the entire document to which it applies. The Bill of Rights changes each and every clause in the original Constitution that is inconsistent with any part of any of its amendments.
For example, 18 USC §930 depends on the Interstate Commerce clause. The original version lacked any authority, and was struck down as ultra vires. Congress added a statement of authority resting on the Interstate Commerce clause. The Court found that to be an adequate basis. What the Court did not consider is that the Bill of Rights amended the Interstate Commerce clause. So, in any case in which that clause be inconsistent with any part of the Bill of Rights, it cannot be used as authority for any statute. As if U.S. Con. Art. 1, § 8 said, "... To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian Tribes; except where such regulation infringe upon the right of the people to keep and bear arms, practice their religion, print newspapers, etc."
On that basis, I submit that 18 USC §930 is unconstitutional, regardless of its reliance on the Interstate Commerce clause. Congress lacks the power to regulate firearms moving across state lines, much less in solely intrastate transactions on the theory that affecting interstate commerce is the same as engaging in interstate commerce. And, by the way, the holding in Wickard v. Filburn, 317 U.S. 111, which established that "principle", was that a man's failure to engage in interstate commerce constituted engaging in interstate commerce because his subsistence farming "affected" interstate commerce because he wasn't using any store-bought wheat. I find that whole theory totally absurd.
The Second Amendment to the Constitution is just that, an amendment. It is not simply another clause tacked on for good measure. The function of an amendment is to amend, to improve by change, the entire document to which it applies. The Bill of Rights changes each and every clause in the original Constitution that is inconsistent with any part of any of its amendments.
For example, 18 USC §930 depends on the Interstate Commerce clause. The original version lacked any authority, and was struck down as ultra vires. Congress added a statement of authority resting on the Interstate Commerce clause. The Court found that to be an adequate basis. What the Court did not consider is that the Bill of Rights amended the Interstate Commerce clause. So, in any case in which that clause be inconsistent with any part of the Bill of Rights, it cannot be used as authority for any statute. As if U.S. Con. Art. 1, § 8 said, "... To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian Tribes; except where such regulation infringe upon the right of the people to keep and bear arms, practice their religion, print newspapers, etc."
On that basis, I submit that 18 USC §930 is unconstitutional, regardless of its reliance on the Interstate Commerce clause. Congress lacks the power to regulate firearms moving across state lines, much less in solely intrastate transactions on the theory that affecting interstate commerce is the same as engaging in interstate commerce. And, by the way, the holding in Wickard v. Filburn, 317 U.S. 111, which established that "principle", was that a man's failure to engage in interstate commerce constituted engaging in interstate commerce because his subsistence farming "affected" interstate commerce because he wasn't using any store-bought wheat. I find that whole theory totally absurd.
color of law
Accomplished Advocate
user, I need you to clarify your above statement. "For example, 18 USC §930 depends on the Interstate Commerce clause."
In effect, you are saying that since 930 fall within Chapter 44 of Title 18 and Chapter 44 is based on the commerce clause under the constitution it is ultra vires. Meaning "beyond the powers" of congress because the Second Amendment removed from their jurisdiction.
If that is the case, I agree. And basically Clarence Thomas agrees. See Thomas concurring opinion in United States v. Hemani, 608 U.S. ___ (2026) citing his dissenting opining in Alderman v. United Stated.
Also, See Miranda v. Arizona, 384 U.S. 436 (1966) "Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule-making or legislation which would abrogate them."
In effect, you are saying that since 930 fall within Chapter 44 of Title 18 and Chapter 44 is based on the commerce clause under the constitution it is ultra vires. Meaning "beyond the powers" of congress because the Second Amendment removed from their jurisdiction.
If that is the case, I agree. And basically Clarence Thomas agrees. See Thomas concurring opinion in United States v. Hemani, 608 U.S. ___ (2026) citing his dissenting opining in Alderman v. United Stated.
Also, See Miranda v. Arizona, 384 U.S. 436 (1966) "Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule-making or legislation which would abrogate them."
user
Accomplished Advocate
Yes, that's what I'm saying. The case that held that Congress acted without authority is United States v. Lopez, 514 U.S. 549 (1995. There's a good Wikipedia article at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Lopez. The last section describes how Congress revised the statute.
Here's another problem, as I see it: how can the commerce clause allow regulation of objects which may have, at one time, been "in or affecting" interstate commerce, but which have since ceased to be so? I.e., how can a gun, privately owned by an otherwise law abiding citizen, residing in a single state, be considered to continue to be "in or affecting" interstate commerce, long after it's been sold and stashed in a dresser drawer for years?
Here's another problem, as I see it: how can the commerce clause allow regulation of objects which may have, at one time, been "in or affecting" interstate commerce, but which have since ceased to be so? I.e., how can a gun, privately owned by an otherwise law abiding citizen, residing in a single state, be considered to continue to be "in or affecting" interstate commerce, long after it's been sold and stashed in a dresser drawer for years?
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color of law
Accomplished Advocate
I went back and checked my notes on Lopez. And lo and behold I found I had written, back in 2013, a three page analysis of Lopez citing National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius, 567 U.S. 519 (2012).
In other words, the commerce clause cannot be used to get around the Bill of Rights.
user
Accomplished Advocate
Terrific case opinion, thanks.
user
Accomplished Advocate
Apropos of an earlier observation, I thought this was interesting:
"The phrase 'active in the market' cannot obscure the fact that most of those regulated by the individual mandate are not currently engaged in any commercial activity ... Our precedents recognize Congress’s power to regulate 'class[es] of activities,' ... not classes of individuals, apart from any activity in which they are engaged ...
...
The proposition that Congress may dictate the conduct of an individual today because of prophesied future activity finds no support in our precedent. We have said that Congress can anticipate the effects on commerce of an economic activity. ... But we have never permitted Congress to anticipate that activity itself in order to regulate individuals not currently engaged in commerce. Each one of our cases, ... involved preexisting economic activity. ..."
-- National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius
The owner of a firearm could have acquired same by gift or inheritance, having no involvement with interstate commerce at all; but even having purchased it (clearly an act involving interstate commerce), once that act is completed, and he is no longer "currently engaged in commerce". The cases cited in Sebelius all have to do with pre-existing involvement that was continuous in nature. As far as I know, there is no precedent regarding involvement in one pre-existing but discrete act.
Thus, again, I argue that Congress lacks the requisite authority to regulate firearms ownership by individuals who are not continuously engaged in "affecting" interstate commerce, such as FFL's.
"The phrase 'active in the market' cannot obscure the fact that most of those regulated by the individual mandate are not currently engaged in any commercial activity ... Our precedents recognize Congress’s power to regulate 'class[es] of activities,' ... not classes of individuals, apart from any activity in which they are engaged ...
...
The proposition that Congress may dictate the conduct of an individual today because of prophesied future activity finds no support in our precedent. We have said that Congress can anticipate the effects on commerce of an economic activity. ... But we have never permitted Congress to anticipate that activity itself in order to regulate individuals not currently engaged in commerce. Each one of our cases, ... involved preexisting economic activity. ..."
-- National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius
The owner of a firearm could have acquired same by gift or inheritance, having no involvement with interstate commerce at all; but even having purchased it (clearly an act involving interstate commerce), once that act is completed, and he is no longer "currently engaged in commerce". The cases cited in Sebelius all have to do with pre-existing involvement that was continuous in nature. As far as I know, there is no precedent regarding involvement in one pre-existing but discrete act.
Thus, again, I argue that Congress lacks the requisite authority to regulate firearms ownership by individuals who are not continuously engaged in "affecting" interstate commerce, such as FFL's.
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color of law
Accomplished Advocate
To expand on your "argu[ment] that Congress lacks the requisite authority to regulate firearms ownership by individuals who are not continuously engaged in "affecting" interstate commerce, such as FFL's.
It actually is not an argument, it has been decided. The Second Amendment encompasses the right to acquire arms. The Supreme Court has affirmed that the right to possess arms for self-defense would be meaningless without the ability to acquire them. In subsequent rulings, such as Ezell v. City of Chicago, 7th Circuit (2011), lower courts and legal scholars have noted that the right to "keep" arms necessarily implies a corresponding right to acquire them, as there is no way to keep something you cannot obtain.
See
"Heller held that the right to “keep” arms refers to “possessing arms.” Heller, 554 U.S. at 583. The right to possess arms necessarily includes the right to acquire them (through purchase, self-manufacture, gift, inheritance, or otherwise) because no one is born with firearms in hand."
Freedmen’s Bureau Act of 1866, §14, 14 Stat. 173, 176–77 (1866)
[T]he right . . . to have full and equal benefit of all laws and proceedings concerning personal liberty, personal security, and the acquisition, enjoyment, and disposition of estate, real and personal, including the constitutional right to bear arms, shall be secured to and enjoyed by all the citizens of such State or district without respect to race or color, or previous condition of slavery.
It actually is not an argument, it has been decided. The Second Amendment encompasses the right to acquire arms. The Supreme Court has affirmed that the right to possess arms for self-defense would be meaningless without the ability to acquire them. In subsequent rulings, such as Ezell v. City of Chicago, 7th Circuit (2011), lower courts and legal scholars have noted that the right to "keep" arms necessarily implies a corresponding right to acquire them, as there is no way to keep something you cannot obtain.
See
"Heller held that the right to “keep” arms refers to “possessing arms.” Heller, 554 U.S. at 583. The right to possess arms necessarily includes the right to acquire them (through purchase, self-manufacture, gift, inheritance, or otherwise) because no one is born with firearms in hand."
Freedmen’s Bureau Act of 1866, §14, 14 Stat. 173, 176–77 (1866)
[T]he right . . . to have full and equal benefit of all laws and proceedings concerning personal liberty, personal security, and the acquisition, enjoyment, and disposition of estate, real and personal, including the constitutional right to bear arms, shall be secured to and enjoyed by all the citizens of such State or district without respect to race or color, or previous condition of slavery.
color of law
Accomplished Advocate
Just to add.
Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. 137 (1803) established the principle of judicial review, which is the power of federal courts to declare legislative acts void if they are repugnant to the Constitution. It does not establish that Congress cannot pass laws infringing upon "fundamental rights."
The Due Process Clause means the government cannot deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without following fair legal procedures and having a legitimate reason. Found in both the Fifth Amendment (limiting the federal government) and the Fourteenth Amendment (limiting state governments), this constitutional guarantee ensures fundamental fairness and prevents arbitrary government action.
The problem is that the Supreme Court believes it is the decider as to what fundamental rights you actually have. But the constitution does not delegate that authority to them. The Bill of Rights remove those fundamental rights from the interference by the government, all governments and all branches of government including the court.
At present the Supreme Court declared the Second Amendment an enumerated right.
In District of Columbia v. Heller (2008), the Supreme Court ruled that the Second Amendment protects an individual's fundamental right to possess firearms for traditionally lawful purposes. In doing so, the Court explicitly categorized it as an "enumerated constitutional right" And in McDonald v. City of Chicago (2010) the Supreme Court applied, through the Fourteenth Amendment, the Second Amendment to the states and local governments.
What was the point of McDonald? The supremacy clause (Article VI, Clause 2 of the U.S. Constitution) does what the Fourth Amendment does, not allow the states to interfere with your Second Amendment right to keep and bear ANY arms.
Miranda v. Arizona, 384 U.S. 436 (1966) "Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule-making or legislation which would abrogate them."
Does Miranda apply to the Supreme Court? If it doesn’t, what stops the Supreme Court from taking away your Second Amendment right? Nothing, except the exercise of the Second Amendment itself.
Until the Supreme Court stops their unconstitutional theory that the court can create judicial doctrines; your fundamental rights will never be protected from government interference.
Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. 137 (1803) established the principle of judicial review, which is the power of federal courts to declare legislative acts void if they are repugnant to the Constitution. It does not establish that Congress cannot pass laws infringing upon "fundamental rights."
The Due Process Clause means the government cannot deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without following fair legal procedures and having a legitimate reason. Found in both the Fifth Amendment (limiting the federal government) and the Fourteenth Amendment (limiting state governments), this constitutional guarantee ensures fundamental fairness and prevents arbitrary government action.
The problem is that the Supreme Court believes it is the decider as to what fundamental rights you actually have. But the constitution does not delegate that authority to them. The Bill of Rights remove those fundamental rights from the interference by the government, all governments and all branches of government including the court.
At present the Supreme Court declared the Second Amendment an enumerated right.
In District of Columbia v. Heller (2008), the Supreme Court ruled that the Second Amendment protects an individual's fundamental right to possess firearms for traditionally lawful purposes. In doing so, the Court explicitly categorized it as an "enumerated constitutional right" And in McDonald v. City of Chicago (2010) the Supreme Court applied, through the Fourteenth Amendment, the Second Amendment to the states and local governments.
What was the point of McDonald? The supremacy clause (Article VI, Clause 2 of the U.S. Constitution) does what the Fourth Amendment does, not allow the states to interfere with your Second Amendment right to keep and bear ANY arms.
Any State that passes a law that denies or attempts to regulate an enumerated right (Second Amendment) is in violation of the supremacy clause.
Miranda v. Arizona, 384 U.S. 436 (1966) "Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule-making or legislation which would abrogate them."
Does Miranda apply to the Supreme Court? If it doesn’t, what stops the Supreme Court from taking away your Second Amendment right? Nothing, except the exercise of the Second Amendment itself.
Until the Supreme Court stops their unconstitutional theory that the court can create judicial doctrines; your fundamental rights will never be protected from government interference.
color of law
Accomplished Advocate
Open Carrying on Postal Property
Based on the first post, I have additional info that the postal regulations regarding firearms on postal property is not supported by our nations history. https://forum.opencarry.org/index.php?threads/open-carrying-on-postal-property.138232/#post-2249353 Bruen, reiterated “[T]he government must...
forum.opencarry.org
DOJ just dropped their appeal.
Curmudgeon
Regular Member
I can't thank you enough for following and posting about this.
I think I know what this means but would you clarify for me and
anyone like me? I can follow along so far before my eyes glaze
and my mind fogs over.
In simple terms what does the DOJ dropping their appeal mean
for anyone wanting to carry, OC or CC, at USPS locations?
EDITED to add: What does this mean, if anything, for the entire U.S.,
or is this still limited to Texas/SAF/GOA? Aside from setting a precedent,
if it even does that, does this mean anything to me in Pennsylvania?
Thank you in advance for any light you can shed my way!
I think I know what this means but would you clarify for me and
anyone like me? I can follow along so far before my eyes glaze
and my mind fogs over.
In simple terms what does the DOJ dropping their appeal mean
for anyone wanting to carry, OC or CC, at USPS locations?
EDITED to add: What does this mean, if anything, for the entire U.S.,
or is this still limited to Texas/SAF/GOA? Aside from setting a precedent,
if it even does that, does this mean anything to me in Pennsylvania?
Thank you in advance for any light you can shed my way!
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