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Pretty good solution to some OC problems

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Maverick9

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It occurred to me that one can limit one's options and fail to see a solution to some OC issues that is right out in the open.

There are some times where, perhaps in a crowd, in a store where you might be bent over your shopping cart, that you are more concerned than other times about retention or being profiled. If you are in an area where you might be concerned about a BG seeing you are armed, then don't look at using a jacket or a coat as anything but a retention barrier. In a store where you are carrying at 4:00 on the belt, bent over a cart, you might have concerns, but just having a jacket on prevents access to your belt and holster.

Is it possible that being so opposed to the command to 'cover it up' that an OC-er might be missing the opportunity to use a light covering garment as retention, as a strategy, as a method?

Now it's true that if you lack a 'permit' in some places you are not allowed to conceal your firearm. So to that extent you don't have this option. Many OC-ers are averse to being 'on a record' somewhere due to the permitting process. For them, they have no choice but to carry a fully exposed firearm. I have no idea how many OC-ers are without permit.

The converse is also true. In Va, we have the option known as the Va Tuck, where one might normally carry concealed with permit, but tuck the shirt or jacket behind the handle to allow quick access when that is anticipated.

Anyway, just sharing a thought - don't be limited by others' prejudices or by an idealism if you don't want to be.
 

Aknazer

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If one has such an issue with retention then I would say that they need a better holster. Also the position of carry should be questioned for why they're putting the gun past a 90 degree angle from their front (then again even if I am concealing I'm not a fan of carrying it on my back area). Now yes it "could" be used as a type of retention, but I would say if that is why you're covering it then you need to recheck your reason for doing so as it seems an extremely weak reason to me.

Personally I carry at the 10-11 clock position and don't worry about things like bending over. I also don't worry about if I put on a jacket and if it covers the weapon or not. I just proceed to go about my life.
 

Maverick9

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I would submit there is always an issue with retention, with being visible, with access, with body position.

At the 10-11:00 position, you have muzzle covering your body, difficulty when being seated.

I'm simply saying 'don't be constrained, think outside that box'. For me the most vulnerable time is when two things happen. I'm leaning over, and there is reason for someone to be inside my normal personal space. That happens in stores, in checkout lines.

FWIW
 
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Bikenut

Guest
It occurred to me that one can limit one's options and fail to see a solution to some OC issues that is right out in the open.

There are some times where, perhaps in a crowd, in a store where you might be bent over your shopping cart, that you are more concerned than other times about retention or being profiled. If you are in an area where you might be concerned about a BG seeing you are armed, then don't look at using a jacket or a coat as anything but a retention barrier. In a store where you are carrying at 4:00 on the belt, bent over a cart, you might have concerns, but just having a jacket on prevents access to your belt and holster.

Is it possible that being so opposed to the command to 'cover it up' that an OC-er might be missing the opportunity to use a light covering garment as retention, as a strategy, as a method?

Now it's true that if you lack a 'permit' in some places you are not allowed to conceal your firearm. So to that extent you don't have this option. Many OC-ers are averse to being 'on a record' somewhere due to the permitting process. For them, they have no choice but to carry a fully exposed firearm. I have no idea how many OC-ers are without permit.

The converse is also true. In Va, we have the option known as the Va Tuck, where one might normally carry concealed with permit, but tuck the shirt or jacket behind the handle to allow quick access when that is anticipated.

Anyway, just sharing a thought - don't be limited by others' prejudices or by an idealism if you don't want to be.
In reference to the portion of your post I put in bold for emphasis...

How does a cover garment provide retention value or prevent access to your firearm? Please consider... if you can get to it by lifting your shirt or jacket so can someone else. And if you can pull it out of the holster without having to bypass a retention device of some kind... so can someone else.

While gun grabs are very rare even for open carriers (but could happen to OC or CC) may I suggest learning and practicing retention techniques so you will know how to react to a gun grab... and using a holster that has built in retention devices?
 
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DaveT319

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If you cover your weapon with a jacket, you are no longer OCing; you are CCing. So you'd better have a permit.

Rather than trying to cover it in some way, I would rethink your carry position and holster type.
 
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Bikenut

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I would submit there is always an issue with retention, with being visible, with access, with body position.

At the 10-11:00 position, you have muzzle covering your body, difficulty when being seated.

I'm simply saying 'don't be constrained, think outside that box'. For me the most vulnerable time is when two things happen. I'm leaning over, and there is reason for someone to be inside my normal personal space. That happens in stores, in checkout lines.

FWIW
Actually, the most vulnerable time for any of us... OC or CC... is when we aren't paying attention to what is going on around us. When we let our situational awareness lapse.
 

Aknazer

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I would submit there is always an issue with retention, with being visible, with access, with body position.

At the 10-11:00 position, you have muzzle covering your body, difficulty when being seated.

I'm simply saying 'don't be constrained, think outside that box'. For me the most vulnerable time is when two things happen. I'm leaning over, and there is reason for someone to be inside my normal personal space. That happens in stores, in checkout lines.

FWIW
I use a serpa holster. Due to the hard shell of the holster I don't have a problem with drawing while seated (a little bit awkward, but not hard as it isn't actually pinched by my body like can happen when one is overweight and/or using a soft-shell holster of some sort) and the holster doesn't really bother me for the most part (if anything it seems like the paddle is more of a bother, but even that isn't bad). I realize that the serpa isn't fool-proof, but even when I've had coworkers mess with me and I knew what they were going to do it still took them a few seconds of me not moving at all for them press the button and move the gun. So I'm really not worried about some random criminal being skilled enough to successfully disarm me that doesn't involve just brute forcing it. So either he's going to overpower the retention (and me), or he's trained in skillfully disabling such a retention and thus is likely skilled/trained in other ways to neutralize me and take what he wants. Regardless of which one it is I don't see the coat over the gun providing any realistic help (though I'm sure theoretically one can come up with all sorts of scenarios where it helps).

So I understand what you're saying, I simply disagree with it. I don't think that the coat really provides anything in the manner that you're saying. Either the person wouldn't have grabbed your gun anyways or the coat isn't going to provide any deterrence to them attempting to grab it. Also my point was that if I'm worried about my gun being "out there" for someone to make an attempt on it, then I would reconsider how I'm carrying it. If I'm that concerned that I think such a thing to be a serious issue then I would either move the location that I'm carrying it, or just properly conceal it with an IWB holster. When I put on a coat its because I want to wear it for some reason (goes with the outfit, temperature, or wind being the standard reasons). I don't do it to try and use it as a form of retention, nor do I try to conceal the weapon with it (if that happens then whatever).
 

g21sfpistol

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you are questioning the one and only way to carry a gun and you havent been insulted yet? im amazed. im sure the "OC gods" will be here shortly to set you straight. a jacket really isnt retention, its more of a barrier. unless you have some physical issues why bend over? even when i CC i squat or take a knee. they very few times i did OC if i were to reach for something i would keep my arm over my gun. if you need two hands, and you are by yourself, i would do a quick look around to make sure someone wasnt waiting to snatch my gun. i would also use the cart as like a channeling barrier. that way its blocking my gun side.

but covering it up,CCing, is ONE advatage ive talked about before. no one is going to grab for your hip hoping there is a gun there. OC i know where its at. i was also bashed,in another thread, using cops as an example of OC. and now a member is using them here and i hear nothing but crickets.
 
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MAC702

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you are questioning the one and only way to carry a gun and you haven't been insulted yet? i'm amazed. im sure the "OC gods" will be here shortly to set you straight.
Rambling hyperbole for emotional effect, with generalization thrown in for good measure...
a jacket really isn't retention, its more of a barrier. unless you have some physical issues why bend over? even when i CC i squat or take a knee. they very few times i did OC if i were to reach for something i would keep my arm over my gun.
Useful information that actually contributes to the thread, thank you.
if you need two hands, and you are by yourself, i would do a quick look around to make sure someone wasn't waiting to snatch my gun. i would also use the cart as like a channeling barrier. that way its blocking my gun side.
If you are in places to worry about such things, you should be using a retention holster, not just relying on awareness, which should be going on no matter how many of your hands are occupied.
but covering it up,CCing, is ONE advantage ive talked about before. no one is going to grab for your hip hoping there is a gun there. OC i know where its at.
I suppose. But then, who grabs OC'ers guns even when they know they are there?
i was also bashed,in another thread, using cops as an example of OC. and now a member is using them here and i hear nothing but crickets.
I'm sure if we actually looked at how you did it, we'll find zero application to the usage in this thread. And if you look at how you started this post, you may one day, when you mature, realize why most are not bothering to respond to you or have given up trying to do so civilly.
 

g21sfpistol

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Rambling hyperbole for emotional effect, with generalization thrown in for good measure...Useful information that actually contributes to the thread, thank you.If you are in places to worry about such things, you should be using a retention holster, not just relying on awareness, which should be going on no matter how many of your hands are occupied.I suppose. But then, who grabs OC'ers guns even when they know they are there?I'm sure if we actually looked at how you did it, we'll find zero application to the usage in this thread. And if you look at how you started this post, you may one day, when you mature, realize why most are not bothering to respond to you or have given up trying to do so civilly.
i can go back and see if i can find where someone stated that to me. im not promising anything though. what places are you thinking of? im talking about normal everyday places like wally world or hy vee. if you have kids i hope you would understand it might be hard to control them with one hand while the other one is glued to your side protecting your gun. YES when i OCed i used a holster with retention. who wouldnt? but will you rely on that alone? i wouldnt. its not hard to look up holsters on youtube and figure out how to use them.

i started off here being civil. after trying to have civil conversations,well trying, i realized how inconsiderate and one sided most people are on here. its like OC is a religon to some here, and if you would bring something up like how someone did get their gun snatched they would tell you "oh it was because of this" or "this guy was just plain stupid so this situation doesnt really count" some people are so full of themselves. its comical but gives faulse information on the subject of OC.
 
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Bikenut

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you are questioning the one and only way to carry a gun and you havent been insulted yet? im amazed. im sure the "OC gods" will be here shortly to set you straight. a jacket really isnt retention, its more of a barrier. unless you have some physical issues why bend over? even when i CC i squat or take a knee. they very few times i did OC if i were to reach for something i would keep my arm over my gun. if you need two hands, and you are by yourself, i would do a quick look around to make sure someone wasnt waiting to snatch my gun. i would also use the cart as like a channeling barrier. that way its blocking my gun side.

but covering it up,CCing, is ONE advatage ive talked about before. no one is going to grab for your hip hoping there is a gun there. OC i know where its at. i was also bashed,in another thread, using cops as an example of OC. and now a member is using them here and i hear nothing but crickets.
Actually I see more insults, ridicule, and inflammatory postings against OC from the CC only folks than I see postings the other way 'round on this... and many other gun forums.

Even the OP has the implied inflammatory posit that OC has some kind of "problem" that CC... covering up with a jacket or coat.. will solve because covering up provides "retention" when the whole thing isn't about retention but is about the idea that if the gun is hidden then the bad guy can't see it and won't snatch it. But that is based upon the assumption that OC guns have the "problem" of being snatched more than CC guns.... and I'd love to see cites and/or links to support that fear.

I will say this.... retention holsters are good things but the most effective manner of retention, regardless of the manner of carry, is the carrier's situational awareness and knowing..plus practicing.. techniques for actively retaining the gun. Thinking that just because no one can see it makes someone safe from a gun grab leaves out the reality that just because you think no one has seen it doesn't mean... no one knows it's there.
 

g21sfpistol

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Actually I see more insults, ridicule, and inflammatory postings against OC from the CC only folks than I see postings the other way 'round on this... and many other gun forums.

Even the OP has the implied inflammatory posit that OC has some kind of "problem" that CC... covering up with a jacket or coat.. will solve because covering up provides "retention" when the whole thing isn't about retention but is about the idea that if the gun is hidden then the bad guy can't see it and won't snatch it. But that is based upon the assumption that OC guns have the "problem" of being snatched more than CC guns.... and I'd love to see cites and/or links to support that fear.

I will say this.... retention holsters are good things but the most effective manner of retention, regardless of the manner of carry, is the carrier's situational awareness and knowing..plus practicing.. techniques for actively retaining the gun. Thinking that just because no one can see it makes someone safe from a gun grab leaves out the reality that just because you think no one has seen it doesn't mean... no one knows it's there.
go check a few of the closed threads in this section. i was being civil even after being criticized. i didnt say if you gun is covered it cant be snatched. but i could get in a scuff with a guy and if he doesnt touch it i will bet he wont know its there. yeah you shirt can hike up yada yada but the point is it will have to get to that point before he knows you have it.

people need to take a gun retention class. you will see how hard it can be. you can bet once that gun comes out of the holster when you are wrestling with someone, it will more than likly go off.
 

MAC702

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i can go back and see if i can find where someone stated that to me. i'm not promising anything though. what places are you thinking of? im talking about normal everyday places like wally world or hy vee. if you have kids i hope you would understand it might be hard to control them with one hand while the other one is glued to your side protecting your gun. YES when i OCed i used a holster with retention. who wouldnt? but will you rely on that alone? i wouldnt. its not hard to look up holsters on youtube and figure out how to use them.

i started off here being civil. after trying to have civil conversations,well trying, i realized how inconsiderate and one sided most people are on here. its like OC is a religion to some here, and if you would bring something up like how someone did get their gun snatched they would tell you "oh it was because of this" or "this guy was just plain stupid so this situation doesn't really count" some people are so full of themselves. its comical but gives false information on the subject of OC.
I myself have several members here on "ignore" because they are a-holes. Do the same if you aren't getting civil conversation. But you can only really do this if you yourself remain civil to the rest of them.

I already know the answer to this, but have you EVER heard of a bad guy grabbing a gun from any retention holster on the side of anyone who wasn't a cop? Again, if you REALLY worry about this, consider buying alien abduction insurance. I'm trying to emphasize how this just won't happen. But if it does make you feel better, there are some retention holsters out there that are all but impossible to defeat. And this would be far more effective than any concealing (these same bad guys you worry about will probably know you carry a concealed firearm) garment or use of your hands for retention.
 

MAC702

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...people need to take a gun retention class. you will see how hard it can be. you can bet once that gun comes out of the holster when you are wrestling with someone, it will more than likely go off.
Choose your words carefully. I will agree that people can benefit from a gun-retention class, and that some people SHOULD take such a class. But there is a whole can of worms opened when you say people NEED to take it.

As for wrestling someone that is a deadly threat to you, and a gun going off, this is often a good thing. Do it on purpose.

Those who conceal their firearms are almost an infinite times more likely to be in the wrestling match and to have an impeded dangerous draw because of it.
 

Grapeshot

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go check a few of the closed threads in this section. i was being civil even after being criticized. --snipped--
Really? Not much, I'd say. You do of course realize that deleted remarks are saved via our editing function and that infractions are awarded for such behavior.

Referring to locked threads is a poor defense for bad conduct. You might extend your longevity here by being more responsible and adhering to the forum rules.
 

DaveT319

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nope. just busting out the hypocrites
That's absolutely HILARIOUS coming from the guy who thinks he can draw faster from CC than from OC! :lol:
i started off here being civil.
Really?
you are questioning the one and only way to carry a gun and you havent been insulted yet? im amazed. im sure the "OC gods" will be here shortly to set you straight.
Doesn't seem very civil to me.

Oh, wait, are you talking about the first time you posted here? Where you made some absurd claims with regard to OC vs. CC? Yeah, I guess that what kind of civil at first. But then when people started calling you on your bullsh!t, rather than articulate a reasonable defense to your position, you got defensive and rude.

But yes, please go on trying to pretend you are abused and ridiculed unjustly... :rolleyes:
 
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Bikenut

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go check a few of the closed threads in this section. i was being civil even after being criticized. i didnt say if you gun is covered it cant be snatched. but i could get in a scuff with a guy and if he doesnt touch it i will bet he wont know its there. yeah you shirt can hike up yada yada but the point is it will have to get to that point before he knows you have it.

people need to take a gun retention class. you will see how hard it can be. you can bet once that gun comes out of the holster when you are wrestling with someone, it will more than likly go off.
I don't know how long you have been frequenting gun forums but I have been around long enough to say I personally have seen much more OC bashing from CC'ers than I've seen CC bashing from OC'ers. I suspect that might be because many OC'ers also CC... but not many CC'ers also OC.

I have to ask... if you are carrying a gun but are not a police officer ... why would you get into a scuffle with some guy in the first place? Isn't one of the basic tactics to avoid and/or de escalate any encounter in order to prevent the gun from becoming a part of the incident?

One of the advantages of OC is so the bad guy DOES know you have it and that can deter him from attacking in the first place. CC does not have that effect.

Both CC and OC have advantages and disadvantages... CC allows folks who don't want to be bothered with questions to carry while OC can cause strangers to interfere with the carrier's day by asking questions and might even result in talking to the police. But for CC'ers to focus on the disadvantages of OC (real or imagined) while ignoring the advantages is just as bad as OC'ers focusing on the disadvantages (real or imagined) of CC while ignoring the advantages.
 
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