• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Professions and Licenses

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
Why do some professions require a state issued license for the practice thereof? For example, Doctor, Lawyer, airplane pilot, real estate agent, barber, hair dresser, just to name a few?..

Thoughts and opinions on the topic at bar much appreciated..

Regards
CCJ
 

bc.cruiser

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
779
Location
Fayetteville NC
Why do some professions require a state issued license for the practice thereof? For example, Doctor, Lawyer, airplane pilot, real estate agent, barber, hair dresser, just to name a few?..

Thoughts and opinions on the topic at bar much appreciated..

Regards
CCJ

A small nit: Mine is a Federal-issue (FAA).

Many communities also require a business license that is issued locally.
 

color of law

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
5,687
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Why do some professions require a state issued license for the practice thereof? For example, Doctor, Lawyer, airplane pilot, real estate agent, barber, hair dresser, just to name a few?..

Thoughts and opinions on the topic at bar much appreciated..

Regards
CCJ
All based on health, safety and welfare.
Barbers for health. Their tools must be disinfected between customers. Their license is issues by the health department. It has nothing to do with their ability to cut your hair the way you like it.

Technically, the state can only charge a license fee to cover the cost of administration. States argue that the fee charged for the license is not a fee. But, we know a fine or fee is nothing more than a tax.

And as we know a license is issued to allow a someone/something to do something that is illegal. A privilege.

Some states issue vendor's license or business license.

My conceal carry license allows me to conceal a handgun. Ohio's license does not require concealment. The question is if I am open carrying am I carrying under the license? I can tell you that it all depends. And I don't mean adult diapers.
 

MamaLiberty

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
895
Location
Newcastle, Wyoming, USA
Why do some professions require a state issued license for the practice thereof? For example, Doctor, Lawyer, airplane pilot, real estate agent, barber, hair dresser, just to name a few?..

Thoughts and opinions on the topic at bar much appreciated..

Regards
CCJ

Because the folks already "licensed" don't want the competition, for starters. The license has little or nothing to do with safety, competence or professionalism. I was an RN for 30 years, and I met every kind of unsafe, incompetent and just plain malicious people who had their nice little "license" and were free to prey on people. The "license" proves nothing, and provides no protection of any kind... except to those who want to maintain control and monopoly.

It's a racket, like any other.
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2011
Messages
3,342
Location
northern wis
Because the folks already "licensed" don't want the competition, for starters. The license has little or nothing to do with safety, competence or professionalism. I was an RN for 30 years, and I met every kind of unsafe, incompetent and just plain malicious people who had their nice little "license" and were free to prey on people. The "license" proves nothing, and provides no protection of any kind... except to those who want to maintain control and monopoly.

It's a racket, like any other.

Very true.

It is more about a persons desire to be and do a competent job then it is about having a license.

Then it is about power of the state to control.
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,276
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
Because the folks already "licensed" don't want the competition, for starters. The license has little or nothing to do with safety, competence or professionalism. I was an RN for 30 years, and I met every kind of unsafe, incompetent and just plain malicious people who had their nice little "license" and were free to prey on people. The "license" proves nothing, and provides no protection of any kind... except to those who want to maintain control and monopoly.

It's a racket, like any other.

+10

Frederic Bastiat, in his 1800's booklet, That Which is Seen and That Which is Not Seen, tells a made up story about the aftermath of a boy who breaks a window. If the reader ever comes across a reference to the broken window fallacy, it is referring back to the illogic Bastiat is illustrating in this booklet. His main point is that, when it comes to economics, we have to look past what we can easily see, and look or think about that which we don't see--we have to think further. Although not directly on point, it has some use here. Obviously, when it comes to licensing, reliable service sounds good. But, is that all that is going on?

Bastiat wrote another piece, usually referred to as the Candlestick Maker's Petition. It is bitingly satirical. You see, in the satire, candlestick makers are facing some pretty stiff competition. So, they approached government with a petition to protect them from this competition. The competition was flooding the market with low-cost light. Who was the competition? The sun. Oh, Bastiat hammers his candlestick makers. The point of the satire is to criticize those who use government's power to stifle their competition, preventing the rest of us from enjoying lower prices and more abundant products or services.

Think about it. Along comes Uber and Lyft. What do the existing cabbies do? They yell to high heaven to government. "They're not licensed!!! Protect us!! We don't want to compete! Pass laws and ordinances forbidding Uber and Lyft! Pass laws making it burdensome for new drivers to earn side income or even main income. They have no equal right to earn a living!"

I like my barber. Nice guy. But, he's anti-competitive. He trots out all the tired clichés about unlicensed barbers. But, he never seems to touch the "restrict entry into the profession by others in order to maintain prices" angle. Well, I never told him, but I got a haircut from one of those "unlicensed" barbers. It went fine. The haircut was fine. In fact, they even used a steamed towel on my face and massaged my scalp at not only no extra charge but for about $1 less. Did I go back? No. Steamed towels and scalp massages just aren't my thing. Plus, since I am not of Asian descent, I had a hard time understanding them. But, just because I am willing to pay an extra buck for old-time barbershop atmosphere and conversation doesn't mean he is justified in reducing my options, or the right of that Asian to start earning a living providing a desired service. In a way, I think my barber is a bit of a dummy. He's one of the few in the area who has a lock on being an old-time barbershop. Instead of leveraging that to increase his business, he decides to side with reducing others' business. Lack of marketing sense, I would guess.

I think MamaLiberty nailed it. All the arguments about safe service and guaranteeing skill level are just persuasions. The reason is to reduce competition to protect the income of those already in the profession.
 

color of law

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
5,687
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Because the folks already "licensed" don't want the competition, for starters. The license has little or nothing to do with safety, competence or professionalism. I was an RN for 30 years, and I met every kind of unsafe, incompetent and just plain malicious people who had their nice little "license" and were free to prey on people. The "license" proves nothing, and provides no protection of any kind... except to those who want to maintain control and monopoly.

It's a racket, like any other.
Thanks, I forgot that part. I sat myself down and had a good talk with myself. It won't happen again.
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
Great replies one and all.. So we all agree a license fee is a TAX? Yes, NO, ?

My memory is slipping however I recall reading that our 18th century Fathers revolted against Taxes?. They must be rolling over in their grave at how citizens today are licensed/taxed on their rights. The sad part is that said citizens like trained seals comply without any resistance thereof. We are indoctrinated at an early age and either out of habit, ignorance or fear we continue to feed the mouths of our masters, masters that should be our servants.

" The power to tax is the power to destroy" Justice John Marshall

" The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe, if you try it, you will be LONELY OFTEN, and sometimes frightened, but no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning your self" Nietzsche

The only way to stop the racket, is stop participating therein...

Paine said, " Moderation in temper is always a virtue, but moderation in principle is always a vice". Indeed, its not the tax its the principle thereof.

My .02
Regards
CCJ
 
Last edited:

MamaLiberty

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
895
Location
Newcastle, Wyoming, USA
Just for the heck of it, I'll share some of my experience with the "license" thing.

After 30 years in nursing, the last 14 spent giving Hospice care as an advanced practice nurse... I decided to retire early. I could write a book about why... Medicare and all of the other insane government rules and interventions among them... but I'll spare you.

My "license" expired on December 31, 2009. I remember vividly waking up near midnight, then looking at the clock as the hand moved past 12... and I felt a massive weight lift off my back as I realized that I was finally free of all the bureaucracy and other insanity. No longer a slave to the powers that be - at least in that.

I was no longer a "licensed" nurse... and the sad part is that if I tried to practice ANYTHING related to my 30 years of education and experience after that, I would be considered a CRIMINAL and could go to jail!!! All because a little card had "expired."

My training and experience didn't vanish at midnight, and my reputation and integrity didn't change in the least... but my ability to use them was gone forever unless I was willing to grovel and beg the state for that "permission" again. And maybe not even then.

Think about that.

And, BTW countryclubjoe, whether the license fee is a tax or not is moot. The problems with it all are much greater than that. It wouldn't matter at all if the "license" was free... it is still wrong.
 
Last edited:

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,331
Location
Valhalla
I feel your pain and your relief. I tested nuclear power plants and reactors with very extensive qualification examinations and experience. I became my job and a stress junkie and that would have killed me had I not been able to walk away. Twenty two years ago.
Someone might ask, "What type of junkie are you now." How will you respond?
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,453
Location
White Oak Plantation
In the eyes of the great unwashed masses the expiration of a licenses (not licensed) does indeed affect your reputation. This is the injustice that the state has done unto us.
 

color of law

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
5,687
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
I was always told that you can't drive without a license. I traveled around town in a machine for three years without a license. Yes, a judge suspended it because he didn't like me. Even got a ticket for not getting permission. The same judge dismissed it. In the end the appeals court agreed with me. The judge was pi$$ed because he had to reinstate my license. Then the license bureau was mad because they couldn't charge a reinstatement fee/tax.

Over the years I have gotten lots of tickets, 99% were dismissed. My attorney friend is always amazed how I would get them dismissed. He got a parking ticket once. I looked at it and told him what to do. I went to court with him and he did what I told him to do and it was dismissed. It blew his mind. Ohio traffic laws and the design of the uniform traffic ticket is such that they work in your favor if you know what you're doing. On an occasion, by mistake, they do get it right, hence my 99%.

Legal extortion, that's all it is.
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
Just for the heck of it, I'll share some of my experience with the "license" thing.

After 30 years in nursing, the last 14 spent giving Hospice care as an advanced practice nurse... I decided to retire early. I could write a book about why... Medicare and all of the other insane government rules and interventions among them... but I'll spare you.

My "license" expired on December 31, 2009. I remember vividly waking up near midnight, then looking at the clock as the hand moved past 12... and I felt a massive weight lift off my back as I realized that I was finally free of all the bureaucracy and other insanity. No longer a slave to the powers that be - at least in that.

I was no longer a "licensed" nurse... and the sad part is that if I tried to practice ANYTHING related to my 30 years of education and experience after that, I would be considered a CRIMINAL and could go to jail!!! All because a little card had "expired."

My training and experience didn't vanish at midnight, and my reputation and integrity didn't change in the least... but my ability to use them was gone forever unless I was willing to grovel and beg the state for that "permission" again. And maybe not even then.

Think about that.

And, BTW countryclubjoe, whether the license fee is a tax or not is moot. The problems with it all are much greater than that. It wouldn't matter at all if the "license" was free... it is still wrong.


Thank you for sharing Mama...
Regards
CCJ
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
I was always told that you can't drive without a license. I traveled around town in a machine for three years without a license. Yes, a judge suspended it because he didn't like me. Even got a ticket for not getting permission. The same judge dismissed it. In the end the appeals court agreed with me. The judge was pi$$ed because he had to reinstate my license. Then the license bureau was mad because they couldn't charge a reinstatement fee/tax.

Over the years I have gotten lots of tickets, 99% were dismissed. My attorney friend is always amazed how I would get them dismissed. He got a parking ticket once. I looked at it and told him what to do. I went to court with him and he did what I told him to do and it was dismissed. It blew his mind. Ohio traffic laws and the design of the uniform traffic ticket is such that they work in your favor if you know what you're doing. On an occasion, by mistake, they do get it right, hence my 99%.

Legal extortion, that's all it is.

I have been doing the exact same thing for over 20 years in NJ.. Folks here have doubted my success.. Glad I have a fellow Patriot on board.
Driver license is only required for commercial driving, not for traveling, we know the difference.

COL, expect to hear some doubts concerning your post. Many here either out of fear or ignorance cannot ascertain that some dare to challenge the de-facto DMV licensing scam, even with proven case law they still have doubts.. SAD, Sad.. The scam only continues because most folks out of ignorance or fear allow said scam to continue unchallenged.

My .02
Regards
CCJ
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
The de-facto license also grants them jurisdiction... No license no legal jurisdiction... Challenge their jurisdiction or lack thereof, and victory is yours, freedom is yours..

Your results may differ, be advised accordingly!

My .02
CCJ
 

color of law

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
5,687
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
I have been doing the exact same thing for over 20 years in NJ.. Folks here have doubted my success.. Glad I have a fellow Patriot on board.
Driver license is only required for commercial driving, not for traveling, we know the difference.

COL, expect to hear some doubts concerning your post. Many here either out of fear or ignorance cannot ascertain that some dare to challenge the de-facto DMV licensing scam, even with proven case law they still have doubts.. SAD, Sad.. The scam only continues because most folks out of ignorance or fear allow said scam to continue unchallenged.

My .02
Regards
CCJ
They can doubt all they want. But I'm not going to get into an argument with those doubters and I am not going to "teach" those who want to learn. It has taken years in law libraries learning this stuff. And because of Al Gore's invention of the internet it's all available by googling. However, buyer be ware, not all you read is correct.
 

MamaLiberty

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
895
Location
Newcastle, Wyoming, USA
It has taken years in law libraries learning this stuff.

I guess if you enjoy spending your time that way. :) I've been driving for 55 years, the last 14 years of it in So. Calif. driving 300 - 400 miles a day in city, town and rural (desert) areas. I was "pulled over" just once, going above the "speed limit" (the old 55 MPH everywhere crap) on a deserted desert road. I paid the "ticket" by mail, since I wasn't planning on going back out that direction and had no desire to go back 150 miles there to "court."

That's it. No tickets and no accidents otherwise in 55 years. No need to study law for that. :)

However, I'm much better off staying out of "court." LOL Have a recurring dream where I'm in court and the "judge" is threatening me with arrest for "contempt of court." I just smile and tell him there are no words in English adequate to express fully my contempt of his court... Then I wake up. :) Don't know if I'd ever actually say that... but it gives me a good laugh to think about it.
 
Last edited:
Top