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Providing ID when open carrying

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JoeSparky

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So now running from the police is no longer grounds for pursuit and detention? Man, that's going to make future episodes of COPS kinda boring... ;)

IF I remember this case the cops actually STOPPED another person in a group. THIS person left the scene as he was not even being talked to by the police or even suspected of a crime, hence NO RAS OR PC to believe that he was violating the law BEFORE the "chase", ID, and search. Then the police did what they did.

Running from the police when YOU are the target of their RAS or PC is NEVER a good thing to do. Even when YOU don't think they have RAS the time to deal with this SUSPECTED violation of your rights is AFTER the event using your CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to seek Redress for grievances from your government!
 
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DaveT319

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Uh, if you are carrying a concealed weapon, how would the cops know you had a weapon....?

A few ways: it imprints when you move a certain way, it gets exposed when you move a certain way... I'm sure there's other circumstances where they could see that you are carrying.
 

DaveT319

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IF I remember this case the cops actually STOPPED another person in a group. THIS person left the scene as he was not even being talked to by the police. Then the police did what they did.

Seems to me there's a difference between "leaving" and "running away". But on general principle, if he wasn't the one being stopped, he should indeed have the right to leave.
 

JoeSparky

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A few ways: it imprints when you move a certain way, it gets exposed when you move a certain way... I'm sure there's other circumstances where they could see that you are carrying.

He might SUSPECT, even RAS, that you have a concealed weapon in this scenario but how does he Know or suspect that you are in violation of ANY law without KNOWING you and your history of being a felon, having a permit to conceal, or carrying under the federal LEO special citizen benefit. There are MANY things commonly carried in a pocket that in combination with other items or by themselves might appear to be a firearm THAT ARE NOT A FIREARM!
 
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MAC702

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If a woman living at a certain address has a restraining order against someone, can cops stake out her house and ID everyone who walks by the house, just to make sure they aren't the person prohibited from being in the area?

Besides, if you aren't doing a licensed activity, why are you even carrying ID?
 
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Freedom1Man

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So does that mean I can walk around with a concealed firearm without a license, and they have no right to stop me, or make sure I have a license, or arrest me?

All your arguments are saying that out founding fathers were idiots.

Our founding fathers believed that part of your inalienable right to self defense included owning firearms/guns/knifes/etc and if you have to have the state's permission to do that, then you don't have any rights at all, really.

Besides, where do find the constitutional authority for the states to tax your for being a citizen in the first place?
 

sudden valley gunner

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I carry sterile no ID or permit while OC'ing.

I take my right to be left alone seriously, thousands if not millions have died for those rights.

Those who surrender them in the name of cooperation are doing others a disservice and entitling the government to harass those who take their rights seriously.
 

acmariner99

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I have several reasons for not letting an LEO check my ID:

1) As has already been stated, a cop needs to have RAS that I have committed or am about to commit a crime. In my home state and elsewhere, it has been stated by multiple courts that a properly holstered and visible weapon is NOT RAS of a crime; further evidence is needed before you are required to provide ID. Simply saying or doing nothing is the easiest thing to do, but you can always say "I would like to speak with a lawyer," or "I do not consent." I have also heard a tactic is to answer their question with a question, like: "What probable cause do you have?"

2) Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law - there is always the possibility you may accidentally incriminate yourself, be mistaken for someone else, or say or do something that can lead to arrest and forfeiture of your firearm. Play it safe and do not say or provide anything.

3) It is not about having anything to hide, it is about having everything to lose - the police are not there to help or protect you. They are there to find evidence of criminal activity and arrest you if they find something. There are two parts to this IMO - You may unintentionally be hiding evidence of criminal activity (somebody might put drugs somewhere in your car, in your home, or on your person - not to mention somebody in your company may have something too) and like point (2) ANYTHING you say WILL be used against you. Nothing you say will help you. Second, it is your right to not say anything as well as be protected from unreasonable search and seizure - and like point (1), the courts have ruled that merely having a weapon does not constitute being unreasonable and therefore the 4A and 5A apply and it is up to YOU to enforce it.

4) Cops are allowed to lie and make threats - or scare you into compliance. Personally I find this distasteful and immoral and will stand my ground and not let them intimidate me.

It is our duty as citizens to ensure that those appointed in authority over us remain within their authorized limits. If you let them use inappropriate authority, they will continue to push the boundary of those limits. Our Republic can only function as long as We The People enforce those limits.

If I am merely walking down the street the above applies - if I am pulled over, my response will depend on a few variables. If they ask if I am carrying, I personally do not want to lie. I would also reveal the location of a weapon if any lawful orders from the officer require that I have to go near my weapon. Such action would be for my safety as moving towards a weapon without the officer being aware of it would probably lead to some form of unpleasantness.

A large part of how a cop responds to you will depend on your attitude. Showing utter contempt will get you nowhere - there is a place and time to lodge complaints if their authority is overstepped and outright resistance will probably end very badly for you. You can assert your rights without being a jerk about it.
 

CT Barfly

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4th-unreasonable search and seizure: I personally do not think it is unreasonable for them to ID me to make sure I am legally allowed to have the weapon. You mentioned "when legally carried", but how do they know if you are legally allowed to carry or even possess a firearm? Now, I did say I would not give them permission to confiscate my weapon for "safety", but I don't feel running a check is really a search.

5th-protection against self-incrimination: I don't see how giving an ID falls under this, especially when I know I have not done anything wrong. Maybe you can explain how it applies?

In the absence of criminality, police officers are not entitled to know anything. some OC'ers like the whole interaction, thumbing their noses at police officers, educating them, etc...but it's unnecessary. Smile, answer no questions, go about your business, record what you can, have your lawyer on speed dial.

As far as the 5th. Providing your ID isn't necessarily incriminating and statutes can compel your disclosure to an LEO. You have to know your local laws on this issue. I would say that without reasonable/articulable/particular-to-you suspicion of wrongdoing, you don't have to open your mouth. Just because an officer is asking seemingly innocuous questions (name, address, etc) which may even be plainly obvious, you are not obligated to answer. The officer is trying to build a wall of PC...you are not obligated to hand him bricks and mortar...that's HIS job. Would you help your hangman tie the noose? I don't go behind the counter at a pizza shop and start helping the guy arrange my pepperonis either.
 
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F350

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As you pointed out, absent of any other PC, an officer should not be able to stop me just because he's seen that I have a concealed weapon. So then why even have concealed carry laws? Just for another way to make criminals out of the law-abiding? As a way to extort more money from us by requiring licenses? When you stop and think it through, it can become rather infuriating.

And yes, it was all hypothetical. I don't participate in illegal activities... at least, not on this level (I've been known to speed on occasion).

Welcome to the dark side Grasshopper :lol:
 

Fuller Malarkey

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A few ways: it imprints when you move a certain way, it gets exposed when you move a certain way... I'm sure there's other circumstances where they could see that you are carrying.

....and those circumstances are the exception rather than the rule.

Concealed means concealed. You seem to apply a sloppiness to all concealed carriers that is not warranted. Those truly intent on concealing are rarely "outed" by a visual scan. That is reinforced by the fact TSA and cops get to do the touchy- feely / molest thing, because rarely does appearance alone indicate that a person is unarmed. And how frequent do we read where a cop pats down a suspect, only to find the suspect has a weapon when processed at jail?

I contend the concealed carrier that desires to be armed and undetected will do so, and there is a thriving concealed carry training and carry aid industry to support that.

My open carry firearms are not bling. I've spent a considerable part of a day with people who realized hours into the day that I was wearing an open carried firearm.
 

CT Barfly

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I carry sterile no ID or permit while OC'ing.

I take my right to be left alone seriously, thousands if not millions have died for those rights.

Those who surrender them in the name of cooperation are doing others a disservice and entitling the government to harass those who take their rights seriously.

Sterile, interesting. Some states require that you have/provide LTC when armed. Obviously, if you can get the initial stop declared unlawful then you won't have a problem...but that might just depend on what the judge had for breakfast. In the 2nd Circuit, OC has been held to be RAS for a stop/question/papers check but those decisions haven't been binding. So, it's a grey area and don't expect to get any sort of remuneration for the violation.
 
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PistolPackingMomma

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Op, I suggest you youtube Prof. Duane's "Do Not Talk to the Police". Pay particular attention to what Officer Bruch says in his first 90 seconds at the podium.
 
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Tackleberry1

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He might SUSPECT, even RAS, that you have a concealed weapon in this scenario but how does he Know or suspect that you are in violation of ANY law without KNOWING you and your history of being a felon, having a permit to conceal, or carrying under the federal LEO special citizen benefit. There are MANY things commonly carried in a pocket that in combination with other items or by themselves might appear to be a firearm THAT ARE NOT A FIREARM!

I believe that a Terry V Ohio allows an officer to conduct an exterior pat down for concealed weapons "for officer safety" whenever they interact with the public.

RAS and PC are not required for this, only for the contact in the first place... This is one of they ways that surrendering your 5A rights, even to engage in idle chit chat with a cop CAN bite you in the arse.

Tack
 

Citizen

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I believe that a Terry V Ohio allows an officer to conduct an exterior pat down for concealed weapons "for officer safety" whenever they interact with the public.

RAS and PC are not required for this, only for the contact in the first place... This is one of they ways that surrendering your 5A rights, even to engage in idle chit chat with a cop CAN bite you in the arse.

Tack

"...We merely hold today that, where a police officer observes unusual conduct which leads him reasonably to conclude in light of his experience that criminal activity may be afoot and that the persons with whom he is dealing may be armed and presently dangerous, where, in the course of investigating this behavior, he identifies himself as a policeman and makes reasonable inquiries, and where nothing in the initial stages of the encounter serves to dispel his reasonable fear for his own or others' safety, he is entitled for the protection of himself and others in the area to conduct a carefully limited search of the outer clothing of such persons in an attempt to discover weapons which might be used to assault him...." Terry v Ohio.

Notice the elements required:

1. Reasonable suspicion regarding crime.

2. Reasonable suspicion may be armed.

3. Presently dangerous.

4. Nothing in the initial stages of the encounter serves to dispel his reasonable fear for his own or others' safety.

Now, in the more than forty years since Terry v Ohio invented Terry Stops out of thin air, how many times do you think any cop or court ever bothered to look at "presently dangerous"? Same question for "nothing in the initial stages..."

Terry says armed and presently dangerous--two factors. In a later case, PA v Mimms, the court sneakily conflated the two factors into one with regard to traffic stops. In Mimms, the court said in essence that being armed means the person is dangerous.


Links to federal court opinions: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...-Your-4th-and-5th-Amendment-Resources-Here!!&
 
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DaveT319

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Some very interesting comments. I really appreciate the responses.
Op, I suggest you youtube Prof. Duane's "Do Not Talk to the Police". Pay particular attention to what Officer Bruch says in his first 90 seconds at the podium.

I've seen it a few times, and it's very eye-opening.
 

wimwag

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Doug
check out a recent supreme case,,, US V. Black...

cops came to roust his OCing friend.
Black runs away.
Cops chase and catch him.
He is searched and ID'd.
They find he is a felon! He has a concealed gun! He doesn't have a permit/license to carry! duh,, he is a felon!!!!

Found,,, running is OK! Search was Unreasonable!
Throw out the evidence,,, Let him go!!!

Got a link? Black v US is a fraud case.

Googled the general.subject and got this...
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_v._Wardlow

Sent from my ZTE V768 using Tapatalk 2
 

Freedom1Man

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SNIP
It is our duty as citizens to ensure that those appointed in authority over us remain within their authorized limits. If you let them use inappropriate authority, they will continue to push the boundary of those limits. Our Republic can only function as long as We The People enforce those limits.

If I am merely walking down the street the above applies - if I am pulled over, my response will depend on a few variables. If they ask if I am carrying, I personally do not want to lie. I would also reveal the location of a weapon if any lawful orders from the officer require that I have to go near my weapon. Such action would be for my safety as moving towards a weapon without the officer being aware of it would probably lead to some form of unpleasantness.

A large part of how a cop responds to you will depend on your attitude. Showing utter contempt will get you nowhere - there is a place and time to lodge complaints if their authority is overstepped and outright resistance will probably end very badly for you. You can assert your rights without being a jerk about it.

I hope you will consider my input.

I prefer not answering the question at all and ask them, "How is that germane to this stop?"
 

notalawyer

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I believe that a Terry V Ohio allows an officer to conduct an exterior pat down for concealed weapons "for officer safety" whenever they interact with the public.

RAS and PC are not required for this, only for the contact in the first place... This is one of they ways that surrendering your 5A rights, even to engage in idle chit chat with a cop CAN bite you in the arse.

Tack

You would be wrong.
 
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