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Question: Possible Open Carry on School Grounds?

Lovenox

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Aug 3, 2010
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I remember seeing a post about public property being "rented" or "leased" and that those that have leased or rented said property can ban firearms because of this. So my question for you legal beagles is this: I understand that my son's baseball league has to pay for the privilege of using baseball fields at the local schools, that being said if the league allows guns during said use would it run afoul of the law? I don't plan on petitioning the league, just a question for debate and to data mine.
 

Lovenox

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Ummmm...because it was discussed before about a private organization renting a public venue and banning guns??
 
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Difdi

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It's a pretty good question.

The reason given for why an organization that leases or rents (as opposed to a use license) being able to ban guns in places such as public buildings that normally cannot ban guns, is that for the duration of the rental/lease they are effectively the property owner. That ownership reverts to the actual property owner when the lease or rental is over.

Take a city-owned convention center for example -- normally anyone with a CPL is able to lawfully carry there, but if part of it is rented out to an anti-gun group, that group can ban guns from the part they are renting.

If you rent/lease part or all of a school facility while school is not in session, is it still a school for purposes of gun bans? If you rent/lease only part of a school facility, would it be legally any different than possessing a gun in the house next door to a school?
 

Lovenox

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If you rent/lease part or all of a school facility while school is not in session, is it still a school for purposes of gun bans? If you rent/lease only part of a school facility, would it be legally any different than possessing a gun in the house next door to a school?


Exactly. I remember my friend getting a speeding ticket that doubled his fine because it was located at a construction site on 101. The only problem was that it was late at night and no construction or highway persons were working. He fought it with vigor and the judge agreed that it wasn't the scope or intent of the law and the ticket was greatly reduced or even dropped if I remember correctly. Since , school is out can the same reasoning apply here?
 

Freedom1Man

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RCW 9.41.280
Possessing dangerous weapons on school facilities — Penalty — Exceptions.



*** CHANGE IN 2014 *** (SEE 6312-S2.SL) ***

(1) It is unlawful for a person to carry onto, or to possess on, public or private elementary or secondary school premises, school-provided transportation, or areas of facilities while being used exclusively by public or private schools:

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.280


There is your answer.
 
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rapgood

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Jan 9, 2012
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Stanwood, WA
I remember seeing a post about public property being "rented" or "leased" and that those that have leased or rented said property can ban firearms because of this. So my question for you legal beagles is this: I understand that my son's baseball league has to pay for the privilege of using baseball fields at the local schools, that being said if the league allows guns during said use would it run afoul of the law? I don't plan on petitioning the league, just a question for debate and to data mine.

Nope. Not afoul. Perfectly legal. Unless the rental agreement says otherwise, the way I read the opinion, Pacific Northwest Shooting Park cuts both ways.
 

tombrewster421

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A better question is, can you carry at a school on the weekend if you go to a church that rents the building? That is a very common occurrence and I would think Rapgood's opinion makes sense in that instance.
 

arentol

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Location
Kent, Washington, USA
RCW 9.41.280
Possessing dangerous weapons on school facilities — Penalty — Exceptions.



*** CHANGE IN 2014 *** (SEE 6312-S2.SL) ***

(1) It is unlawful for a person to carry onto, or to possess on, public or private elementary or secondary school premises, school-provided transportation, or areas of facilities while being used exclusively by public or private schools:

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.280


There is your answer.
I am neither a public nor private school. So if I am using the facility, perhaps to see a high school play, then doesn't this mean I can carry a firearm? After all, while I am present the facility is no longer being used exclusively by the school, I am using it as well, right?

Once again a state legislature proves they are completely incapable of writing a law that means what they intend.
 

Freedom1Man

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I am neither a public nor private school. So if I am using the facility, perhaps to see a high school play, then doesn't this mean I can carry a firearm? After all, while I am present the facility is no longer being used exclusively by the school, I am using it as well, right?

Once again a state legislature proves they are completely incapable of writing a law that means what they intend.

I am not giving legal advice, I am just giving my opinion based on the clear wording of the laws.

But in the what you describe I would say no, school grounds, school game, so no guns.

Like at the church I used to go to. There is a private school during the week days and then in the evenings there are non-school activities and service on Sundays. I've carried there while school was not in session.

I've carried on school grounds during a summer break because I was helping with an adult orientated outdoor cooking class. It was a dutch oven cooking class.

I have learned that persecutors have a hard time with plain language laws. So while many of us might understand the law to mean what it says the persecutor might come up with another meaning and get the judges to agree with their twisted meaning.
 
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tombrewster421

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Roy, WA
Temporary occupation doesn't change the type of building that it is. IMO.

Then by the same standards, we should all be able to carry in stadiums no matter who is running the event. After all it is a public building paid for by our taxes and covered under preemption.
 
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Difdi

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Mar 2, 2010
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Seattle, Washington, USA
Temporary occupation doesn't change the type of building that it is. IMO.

But it would mean that that building is not being used exclusively as a primary or secondary school.

That is actually a good argument to use as a counter to both... They can't have it both ways.

I bet they'll try anyway. Whichever argument you use second is going to have a lot more impact, if you lose the first case. Going after the school side first would have the greatest benefit I think, but also the greatest risk for the poor schmuck who ends up as the test case.
 

mikeyb

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Joined
Feb 19, 2013
Messages
554
Location
Bothell
RCW 9.41.280
Possessing dangerous weapons on school facilities — Penalty — Exceptions.
*** CHANGE IN 2014 *** (SEE 6312-S2.SL) ***

(1) It is unlawful for a person to carry onto, or to possess on, public or private elementary or secondary school premises, school-provided transportation, or areas of facilities while being used exclusively by public or private schools:

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.280

I have been corrected by others on this board about the interpretation of .280. You're selecting only half of the statement.

(1) It is unlawful for a person to carry onto, or to possess on, public or private elementary or secondary school premises, school-provided transportation, or areas of facilities while being used exclusively by public or private schools:

If Safeco is rented out by the Washington scholastic athletics association (or whatever it's called) for the State High School Baseball Championships, guns would be unlawful to carry there. Graduations at Comcast Center. High School football games at city stadiums. The argument would be made that the school was the exclusive occupant at those times. A field trip to the Ballard Locks or Seattle Aquarium, for example, does not fit the "used exclusively" standard, as the general public can still access the building.

Also, the law is unambiguous. No carry on school premises- regardless of activities, if school is in session or not (which is uber-retarded). Other than the specifically exempted pick-up/drop-off of student, or proceeding to hunting ground exclusions, etc., carry is not allowed. I think the only other exemption is to have the gun, unloaded, in an opaque container.

"Areas of facilities" is not school premises. Otherwise it'd say "Areas of school facilities" and be redundant to the first part.
 
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heresolong

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Oct 4, 2007
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Blaine, WA, ,
if the league allows guns during said use would it run afoul of the law? I don't plan on petitioning the league,...

A better question might be "Does the league prohibit guns?" If they do not have a rule against carrying then, according to the discussion below and the response from rapgood especially, it is perfectly legal. If you were to petition them I can almost guarantee what the answer would be. This reminds me of the discussions several years ago where members of this forum were going to ask permission to open carry in various places, with predictable results. Numerous businesses said "please don't" before word got around that this was a losing tactic. Right now the league is leasing the property, they get to set the rules within the confines of state law, and so long as they have not adopted a rule banning guns, you are good to go.

This is, however, a situation where I would imagine that the first time you open carry they will promptly adopt such a rule. Might be a good time to CC and the lack of a rule then provides an affirmative defense for having a firearm on school property should a situation arise where you need it.
 

mikeyb

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Location
Bothell
This is, however, a situation where I would imagine that the first time you open carry they will promptly adopt such a rule. Might be a good time to CC and the lack of a rule then provides an affirmative defense for having a firearm on school property should a situation arise where you need it.

If you have a firearm on school property, it is illegal, unless you fulfill the few exceptions.
 
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