carracer
Regular Member
Just curious, could you point to the other forum for me? PM if you would rather.
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Serving Alcohol to OC/CC folks, put yourself in my shoes......
- Thread starter ecocks
- Start date
mark-in-texas
Regular Member
Do you have any problem serving alcohol to people who might be CCing car keys?? Drunk drivers kill more people in one day, than are killed by firearms in a year....:banghead:
Yeah I do, that's why the limit for everyone is 3 max.
I'm not intending to be even a partial participant in tragedy.
MKEgal
Regular Member
What if you offered everyone carrying (either OC or they discreetly show you they're cc),
that after they buy their first drink (whether it's soda or whatever their one ETOH of choice is),
they get their hand stamped or a wristband or something,
then 25c soda the rest of the night, but no more ETOH?
(Or if you want, make it 2 alcoholic drinks, then cheap soda.)
If they choose to keep drinking alcohol past the 1 or 2 drinks, no cheap soda for them, but the regular rules still apply about not being intoxicated.
If they're the designated driver/carrier, it works out well for them.
I've read that soda is one of those things that there's a large markup on,
so you could still make a profit even while offering it at a reduced price
and make it sort of a bonus for 2A-aware people,
while encouraging them to limit the alcohol consumption & stick around for a few Cokes while their body processes the alcohol...
that after they buy their first drink (whether it's soda or whatever their one ETOH of choice is),
they get their hand stamped or a wristband or something,
then 25c soda the rest of the night, but no more ETOH?
(Or if you want, make it 2 alcoholic drinks, then cheap soda.)
If they choose to keep drinking alcohol past the 1 or 2 drinks, no cheap soda for them, but the regular rules still apply about not being intoxicated.
If they're the designated driver/carrier, it works out well for them.
I've read that soda is one of those things that there's a large markup on,
so you could still make a profit even while offering it at a reduced price
and make it sort of a bonus for 2A-aware people,
while encouraging them to limit the alcohol consumption & stick around for a few Cokes while their body processes the alcohol...
Prophet
Regular Member
I would just treat carriers the same way I treat drivers. If they're getting tipsy i stop serving them. They dont like it they can leave. Besides, drunk drivers are MUCH more dangerous than drunken carriers.
I usually don't drink to excess while carrying but on the occasion that i find myself having a few too many i empty my pistol, clear the chamber and hand the magazine to a friend...kind of like giving the keys to a DD, but this way we both can keep drinking because alone we really can't do any SERIOUS damage. Of course i could alway pistol whip someone if i needed to.
I usually don't drink to excess while carrying but on the occasion that i find myself having a few too many i empty my pistol, clear the chamber and hand the magazine to a friend...kind of like giving the keys to a DD, but this way we both can keep drinking because alone we really can't do any SERIOUS damage. Of course i could alway pistol whip someone if i needed to.
hermannr
Regular Member
Hej Takon, different states, different laws. Here in WA "intoxicated" is defined as .08 in a vehicle, out of a vehicle, carry or no carry. It appears in Idaho it may be .04 of CC is involved, maybe not. If the guy is truly CC, how are you going to know one way or the other anyway? Look at your local state law, I am sure they have some "number" that is used to indicate "intoxicated". Ours is specifically keyed to the DWI law, yours may or may not be the same.
ecocks: When I go out to eat, I have "a" (1) pint. that is all I ever want anyway, but there are others out there do drink more...but with a meal?
May I suggest you have a couple good local micros on tap, charge a fair price, and serve a pint...
A pint is a good sized glass of beer, if people are there to eat, I doubt very much anyone will even order more than one. I think the problem comes when service is slow, and the beer has no body. (or if someone has already been drinking somewhere else)
If I was you I would not even offer something I could not have on tap. It makes your inventory easier too. Personally, I probably would not even offer bud or miller or anything like that swill. Just a couple good local micros. I'm sure there are several in the Boise area.
One pint an hour would be a good limit if your restaurant has quick service. Slow service could possibly create a problem.
The restaurant my wife and I like to frequent here has Alpine (local) on tap. It is super good beer, and you cannot purchase it in the bottle, and Sully's serves it in a pint glass. We have never ordered a second (sometimes my wife and I split one, sometimes we get one each, but never two each...no need) I would guess, with a meal, that one pint might register 0.02...maybe.
My policy is that, if I'm drinking, I don't allow the weapon to leave my holster at all, for any reason. This prevents the risk of accidental discharge while attempting to clear the weapon. Also, when in public, pulling the weapon out of its holster is NEVER an option for me. The only time my pistol will leave its holster in public is if I'm going to use it. Less hands on the weapon means less chance for danger.
MKEgal
Regular Member
clarke, the OP isn't asking about people having pistols out of holsters,
he's asking for suggestions or input about his drinking while armed policy.
Other than in a more or less private setting of other "gun people", or a range, I don't think any responsible person would draw unless threatened.
he's asking for suggestions or input about his drinking while armed policy.
Other than in a more or less private setting of other "gun people", or a range, I don't think any responsible person would draw unless threatened.
wrightme
Regular Member
I think that communication should say it all.
Well, except for the "counter-top breathalyzer" thing.
Just follow the same standards you follow for other customers, and from a legal standpoint, you should be fine. There is no rational reason to create a new policy.
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oldbanger
Regular Member
no numbers here.
18-3302B.Carrying concealed weapons under the influence of alcohol or drugs. It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a concealed weapon on or about his person when intoxicated or under the influence of an intoxicating drink or drug. Any violation of the provisions of this section shall be a misdemeanor.
http://www.legislature.idaho.gov/idstat/Title18/T18CH33SECT18-3302B.htm
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Outdoorsman1
Regular Member
MKgal...
Don't be too sure....
WOW....
As far as the OP... As already stated laws very from state to state... know your state laws well and set whatever policy YOU are most comfortable with...
Outdoorsman1
Don't be too sure....
WOW....
As far as the OP... As already stated laws very from state to state... know your state laws well and set whatever policy YOU are most comfortable with...
Outdoorsman1
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MKEgal
Regular Member
The current law in WI (for OC) is similar, but when I chased down what they meant by "under the influence" it got strange.
The statutes for "intoxicated use of" firearms & motor vehicles overlap almost completely.
That is, it's one statute & says it applies to both cars & guns.
EXCEPT that when referring to DUI, there are 2 laws & 2 standards:
One is simply impaired, which could be legal drugs or alcohol, or a combination, even if below the...
.08%BAC which is prima facia proof of OWI.
For possession or use of a firearm, "under the influence" is defined (not well!) as "materially impaired".
No BAC given.
I understand it's generally taken to be the same .08 standard as DUI, but it's not written that way.
Under the new cc law, if someone is cc in a restaurant or bar, s/he may not drink alcohol.
Elsewhere it's legal as long as not "materially impaired".
And it looks like the provision of being allowed to OC in a place that serves alcohol, while also consuming, without a cc permit but with permission of the owner or manager, will still be in place.
Keep in mind that people all over the US read this board. In particular, notice where the post is posted (if in a state forum) and make it clear where you are. That helps to avoid giving and getting bad advice.
In general, we don't recommend getting legal advice from LEO's. This is one of those times. In Missouri, it's perfectly legal to be drunk as a skunk and in possession of a firearm (not that I advise it.)
Now, if you are holding or using the firearm in a negligent or unlawful manner, that's a different story. If you are at a range, and are shooting while intoxicated, you are in very murky waters (the definition of negligent isn't clear, and to be unlawful, you're in a self-referential situation.) It looks like it's meant to be a penalty enhancer more than a primary charge, but some LEO's will look for anything. I'd definitely stay clear of that.
You may read for yourself here http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c500-599/5710000030.htm it's 571.030.(1).5
hermannr
Regular Member
Somewhere in Idaho's there is a definition of "imparied". Sometimes it is the same as under the influence, sometimes not. The differences is to cover those times when a LEO is not comfortable with a person driving away from a traffic stop, even if the breathilizer says less than say .08. Different states/countries, different definitions. In Sweden it is 0.02!
Look in the driving regs as well as the definitions sections of the CC law. I can't do too much indepth research, I'm on dial-up.
oldbanger
Regular Member
The OP was about "I'm planning on a beer and wine license for the restaurant in the next couple of months and need to determine my policy on serving those carrying firearms."
It was not about drinking and driving.
Being "under the influence" and open carrying a firearm are not connected.
Section 39-310, Idaho Code, a section in the
Alcoholism and Intoxication Treatment Act which provides that no
person shall be prosecuted criminally for a violation of law that
includes drinking or being in an intoxicated state as one of the
elements of the offense.
Boise
Municipal Code § 6-01-06
Section 6-01-06 PUBLIC INTOXICATION
Any person, who is in public and intoxicated at a level that presents a danger to others or creates a disturbance of the peace, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.
http://www.cityofboise.org/Departments/City_Clerk/PDF/CityCode/Title6/0601.pdf
I wanted to throw my opinion in here, as well as experience, and fact:
1. We know the code. Intoxication and concealed carrying don't mix (legally). Per the Ada country sheriff's office, the legal limit for concealed carrying is "point 0 don't do it". It is a judgment call on the part of the officer to determine if you are impaired. There is no legal definition. It is NOT linked to the driving limits. The (very 2A friendly) deputies that teach the Ada Country Sherrif's concealed class (which I HIGHLY recommend, whether you ever conceal or not, as it's very informative about legal use of force, etc, and it's free) answer this question every time.
2. With that said, there is no "legal" restriction on open carrying combined with alcohol consumption that I have been made aware of (in discussions with LEO, and review of the law, which we should all know).
3. I tend to set personal rules. If I'm consuming more than a beer, I at least unload. The gun doesn't leave the holster if I've consumed any alcohol until I'm home and putting it away.
With that said, in response to ecocks, I've been to his restaurant. Given that it's also the place for the open carry meetings, I think that alcohol to carriers should be avoided. If we want to be perceived as responsible, if our goals are really instruction of the public, and exercising of 2A rights, the public should be able to perceive that we are clear headed and responsible individuals. We should be cognizant of the fact that this state is great. My home state of North Carolina does not allow open carry where alcohol is served. With that said, it has similar open carry/consumption laws. It's a hard choice. Do you serve them the alcohol and let them make the choice? That's ideal. Will people make the right choice? Rarely.
1. We know the code. Intoxication and concealed carrying don't mix (legally). Per the Ada country sheriff's office, the legal limit for concealed carrying is "point 0 don't do it". It is a judgment call on the part of the officer to determine if you are impaired. There is no legal definition. It is NOT linked to the driving limits. The (very 2A friendly) deputies that teach the Ada Country Sherrif's concealed class (which I HIGHLY recommend, whether you ever conceal or not, as it's very informative about legal use of force, etc, and it's free) answer this question every time.
2. With that said, there is no "legal" restriction on open carrying combined with alcohol consumption that I have been made aware of (in discussions with LEO, and review of the law, which we should all know).
3. I tend to set personal rules. If I'm consuming more than a beer, I at least unload. The gun doesn't leave the holster if I've consumed any alcohol until I'm home and putting it away.
With that said, in response to ecocks, I've been to his restaurant. Given that it's also the place for the open carry meetings, I think that alcohol to carriers should be avoided. If we want to be perceived as responsible, if our goals are really instruction of the public, and exercising of 2A rights, the public should be able to perceive that we are clear headed and responsible individuals. We should be cognizant of the fact that this state is great. My home state of North Carolina does not allow open carry where alcohol is served. With that said, it has similar open carry/consumption laws. It's a hard choice. Do you serve them the alcohol and let them make the choice? That's ideal. Will people make the right choice? Rarely.
hermannr
Regular Member
I like to have a beer (or glass of wine) with my dinner. It is about the only time I ever drink anything when we are out. If someone doesn't like it? Tuff. Those kind of people gave us prohibition, the war on drugs and the war on the 2A. I don't leave my gun at home because I might offend someone, and I sure am not going to not have my beer with dinner so I don't offend someone either.
Oh, BTW: These are the same ones you see driving down the road talking on their cell phones..
Oh, BTW: These are the same ones you see driving down the road talking on their cell phones..
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Which is nothing compared to driving down the road typing and reading a laptop computer. But only cops do that...
Cavalryman
Campaign Veteran
Interestingly, in my home state of Alaska, you may ONLY carry openly while in a bar. You may not consume alcohol while carrying a firearm in public. I can only speculate that the open-carry provision is so that the bartender will know whom not to serve.
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jdgypsy
Regular Member
Ed, firstwanted to say Merry Christmas and happy New Year, good talking with you in OCT while I was on R&R. Made the E8 list this month, get pinned within the year(2012).
Boy you asked a good one here, noticed on my barely checked yahoo email and thought I had been away for so long, if I was coming back on the forum toda, this was the thread.
You know my opinion on rights and freedoms, they must be enforced. I enjoy a beer like most and think personnaly when it is me and a close friend and I know how we react...a beer or glass of wine during dinner while armed is not a big deal. That is me though, we both probably know some boneheads that can't have just one or two and even if they have just one or two and leave and get more down the road it may lead back to you, although you only served them one or two it puts you in a bad light. Leagal fees as well !!!!
All I can say is cover your ass. I think this may open a can of worms that you can't close. If you don't serve those who are armed, no big deal...it is your right to refuse service, your call.
If you do serve those who arm themselves, screw what anyone will think.....except for law-enforcement and bad press.
Big choice brother, I support whatever decision you make. Hope one day to come back up there and enjoy a cold one and some good food.
FOB BAGRAM....out !!
Boy you asked a good one here, noticed on my barely checked yahoo email and thought I had been away for so long, if I was coming back on the forum toda, this was the thread.
You know my opinion on rights and freedoms, they must be enforced. I enjoy a beer like most and think personnaly when it is me and a close friend and I know how we react...a beer or glass of wine during dinner while armed is not a big deal. That is me though, we both probably know some boneheads that can't have just one or two and even if they have just one or two and leave and get more down the road it may lead back to you, although you only served them one or two it puts you in a bad light. Leagal fees as well !!!!
All I can say is cover your ass. I think this may open a can of worms that you can't close. If you don't serve those who are armed, no big deal...it is your right to refuse service, your call.
If you do serve those who arm themselves, screw what anyone will think.....except for law-enforcement and bad press.
Big choice brother, I support whatever decision you make. Hope one day to come back up there and enjoy a cold one and some good food.
FOB BAGRAM....out !!