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Showing ID to police

Citizen

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I do not show ID to police while OC for same reason I do not whilst not carrying at all. I do not want to and I have no legal obligation to do so.

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk
Forum founder Mike recommended a number of times something he called sterile carry--open carry without carrying ID. Of course, only where legal--meaning not in states where you needed a permit to OC and were also required to have an ID document along with permit. I did that a number of times, but not always. Forgetfulness initially.

Then I changed my personal policy. My personal policy is that if a cop even consensually contacts me about my OC'd defensive side-arm, I am writing a formal complaint.

Now, some folks might think that over the top. But, hear me out.

First, if a cop contacts me even consensually about my OC'd defensive sidearm, he's proved he's willing to reduce an enumerated human right to suspicion of criminality. Nope. Ain't gonna sit still for that one. Second, just based on personal statistics and reports here on OCDO, lots of cops will screw up even a consensual encounter.

Thus, I'm planning on giving him my ID because about two days later he's gonna learn my identity anyway when my formal complaint lands on the desk at Internal Affairs.

HOWEVER! That is my right--to show ID or not. I reserve the right to not show it, or even identify myself verbally absent a state statute or local ordinance requiring it.

Oh, that reminds me. County and city ordinances can change monthly--just a vote by the Board of Supervisors or Town Council. I can't keep up with new ordinances in every local jurisdiction I visit. I'm not gonna walk into a citation or arrest by withholding identity. <chuckle> Especially when cops have such a rich history of overstepping their authority. Heck, just based on reports to date, a cop demanding my identity has a good chance of a formal complaint sticking to him for other reasons. Thus, I don't mind a cop asking my identity. He's going to find out who I am anyway in about two or three days. Guaranteed. That's my policy. Every single misstep the cop makes during even a consensual encounter is going to be a bullet-point in a formal complaint.
 
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davidmcbeth

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Instead, issue out a no-contact order with the town & PD ... ordering them not to contact you.

Then he comes up and asks you for ID, you can tell him that he cannot approach you at all and that he is committing a crime in doing so and to vacate immediately.

Think that no contact orders don't work? Of the PDs I served, none have come up to me to harass me whereas before it was all the time.
 

OC for ME

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... I thought this site was for responsible open carry, not for people who only want to stir up trouble any way they can. Please correct me if I was mistaken.
This is what OCDO is focused on.
OpenCarry.org was founded in 2004 by Virginia residents John Pierce and Mike Stollenwerk to be a pro-gun Internet community focused on the right to openly carry properly holstered handguns in daily American life.

(15) WE ADVOCATE FOR THE 'LAW-ABIDING' ONLY: Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts.
By "definition" every visibly armed citizen complying with the law is a responsible gun owner.

I note a difference between people who go out of their way to set up confrontations with police, and people who are just going about their day who are confronted by police.

In the first, the OC'er is the aggressor and is in the wrong, but in the second the policeman is the aggressor and is in the wrong.
The lawful exercise of a right is not setting up a cop. You seemed to have agreed with this premise earlier in this thread. There can be no aggressor if a cop follows the law and does not approach a LAC who is visibly armed.
Fair enough.
You take issue with a citizen who lawfully exercises his rights in a manner you disapprove of.
 

solus

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here nc
how to i post a new thread?
welcome to the forum, and you have several options...
1. state level specific topic you go to, say OR's sub thread and click on the right side banner which says...[post a new thread]
2. general news, etc., topic got to that main sub thread click on the right side banner which says...[post a new thread]

if meeting or training request...top of the state sub thread and do the same...

simple as eating a piece of pecan pie with real whipped cream on top ~ sigh

ipse
 

Citizen

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Messages
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Location
Fairfax Co., VA
welcome to the forum, and you have several options...
1. state level specific topic you go to, say OR's sub thread and click on the right side banner which says...[post a new thread]
2. general news, etc., topic got to that main sub thread click on the right side banner which says...[post a new thread]

if meeting or training request...top of the state sub thread and do the same...

simple as eating a piece of pecan pie with real whipped cream on top ~ sigh

ipse
Look, if you're gonna post that kinda stuff, you gotta do it late enough after lunch that readers aren't regretful, and enough in advance of supper that a fella has time to get the fixin's.

Dang it! Now, I'm all hungry for pecan pie and ain't got time to make none.

:D
 

color of law

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Posted by solus
welcome to the forum, and you have several options...
1. state level specific topic you go to, say OR's sub thread and click on the right side banner which says...[post a new thread]
2. general news, etc., topic got to that main sub thread click on the right side banner which says...[post a new thread]

if meeting or training request...top of the state sub thread and do the same...

simple as eating a piece of pecan pie with real whipped cream on top ~ sigh

ipse
Look, if you're gonna post that kinda stuff, you gotta do it late enough after lunch that readers aren't regretful, and enough in advance of supper that a fella has time to get the fixin's.

Dang it! Now, I'm all hungry for pecan pie and ain't got time to make none.

:D
Grape at one point locked this thread, then unlocked this thread. We would not be dealing with pecan pie with real whipped cream on top if he had just stuck to his guns....Some may start believing Grape is wishy washy.
 

Grapeshot

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Valhalla
Have pecan pie on hand, but alas no whipped cream. Guess I'll have to make do with a dollop of ice cream.
 

Citizen

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Joined
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Messages
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Location
Fairfax Co., VA
Grape at one point locked this thread, then unlocked this thread. We would not be dealing with pecan pie with real whipped cream on top if he had just stuck to his guns....Some may start believing Grape is wishy washy.
No, no. They can't wish for washed grapes--the wine doesn't ferment correctly.

(sigh) Back to identity document demands by police. Where was I? Oh, yes.


One thing I do suggest is hunt up the ordinances in the jurisdictions around you. If you live in a state without a stop-and-identify statute that is. I've never heard of one of these things being repealed. So, if you come across one, you'll know your options if seized in that particular jurisdiction.

Now, lemme see if I can find a good pecan pie recipe.
 

Fallschirjmäger

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If you live in a state without a stop-and-identify statute that is. I've never heard of one of these things being repealed. So, if you come across one, you'll know your options if seized in that particular jurisdiction.
Re "Stop and Identify States" of all that are listed in the Wikipedia article (who's codes I've also tracked down where available), none of them demand that a document be produced. The closest any state comes to that is - - -
INDIANA
http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/title34/ar28/ch5.html
IC 34-28-5-3Detention
Sec. 3. Whenever a law enforcement officer believes in good faith that a person has committed an infraction or ordinance violation, the law enforcement officer may detain that person for a time sufficient to:
(1) inform the person of the allegation;
(2) obtain the person's:
(A) name, address, and date of birth; or
(B) driver's license, if in the person's possession; and
(3) allow the person to execute a notice to appear

IC 34-28-5-3.5
Refusal to identify self
Sec. 3.5. A person who knowingly or intentionally refuses to provide either the person's:
(1) name, address, and date of birth; or
(2) driver's license, if in the person's possession; to a law enforcement officer who has stopped the person for an infraction or ordinance violation commits a Class C misdemeanor.
NB There is at least one state that requires a driving license or other government identification be carried and presented when carrying with a concealed license, if I remember correctly.
 

MAC702

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Nevada
... There is at least one state that requires a driving license or other government identification be carried and presented when carrying with a concealed license, if I remember correctly.
NV is one. The license is county-issued, and must be carried with state-issued ID when using it (when carrying concealed). The penalty is a $25 civil infraction, the same as not having your driver's license in your possession while driving, assuming a valid one is issued to you of course.
 

Citizen

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NV is one. The license is county-issued, and must be carried with state-issued ID when using it (when carrying concealed). The penalty is a $25 civil infraction, the same as not having your driver's license in your possession while driving, assuming a valid one is issued to you of course.
This sort of thing annoys me to no end. In the era of computerized everything, why fine a person for not having the document on his person? The cops is gonna run it through their computer anyway.

And, backwards is true, too. Even if you produce the actual legal document--the driver's license--the cop is still gonna run it through his computer.

One or the other. But not both.

We have something along these lines in VA. When the CCW statute was reformed, police lobbied the legislature to be able to verify the permit against the state police computer records. And, it is a requirement for recognizing an out-of-state CCW permit: VA has to be able to access the other state's CCW permit records 24/7.

The dang license document is the license. The license is not the computer record.

One or the other, but not both.

Really it just illustrates the absurdity of government: it wants its cake and to eat it, too.
 

solus

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here nc
Like feeding a chicken. You do know what chicken feed is made of? Chickens calcium metabolism is so inefficient and overloaded that a huge fraction, like a fifth, of the calcium in their diet is excreted. So chicken excreta is really high in calcium, that is cooked sterile and recycled in chicken feed. Just like the government, it is what it eats.
green or red?

ipse
 

Fallschirjmäger

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Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
...t is a requirement for recognizing an out-of-state CCW permit: VA has to be able to access the other state's CCW permit records 24/7.

Well that explains why Georgia is on Virginia's naughty list, our laws prohibit establishing or maintaining a centralized database. If you want to call someone to establish a Georgia resident's bona fides, be patient as there are one-hundred and fifty-nine county probate courts to call. And be careful about calling right around noon, that's when Sue-Ellen-Maryanne takes lunch and you do Not want to interrupt her Soaps.

ps. Our penalty for not having a license on in one's immediate possession is $10 if it can be produced in court, exactly the same fine for not having a driving license in the same circumstances. (I claim at least partial credit for suggesting it to my representatives.)
 
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color of law

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Re "Stop and Identify States" of all that are listed in the Wikipedia article (who's codes I've also tracked down where available), none of them demand that a document be produced. The closest any state comes to that is - - -
INDIANA
http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/title34/ar28/ch5.html
IC 34-28-5-3Detention
Sec. 3. Whenever a law enforcement officer believes in good faith that a person has committed an infraction or ordinance violation, the law enforcement officer may detain that person for a time sufficient to:
(1) inform the person of the allegation;
(2) obtain the person's:
(A) name, address, and date of birth; or
(B) driver's license, if in the person's possession; and
(3) allow the person to execute a notice to appear

IC 34-28-5-3.5
Refusal to identify self
Sec. 3.5. A person who knowingly or intentionally refuses to provide either the person's:
(1) name, address, and date of birth; or
(2) driver's license, if in the person's possession; to a law enforcement officer who has stopped the person for an infraction or ordinance violation commits a Class C misdemeanor.
NB There is at least one state that requires a driving license or other government identification be carried and presented when carrying with a concealed license, if I remember correctly.
Of the few cased dealing with the Indiana statute only one actually deals with a person that was charged and convicted for not identifying which was overturned because the cop had no RAS. All the other cases were traffic stops and one "J" walking.
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
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IC 34-28-5-3Detention
Sec. 3. Whenever a law enforcement officer believes in good faith that a person has committed an infraction or ordinance violation, the law enforcement officer may detain that person for a time sufficient to:
(1) inform the person of the allegation;
(2) obtain the person's:
(A) name, address, and date of birth; or
(B) driver's license, if in the person's possession; and
(3) allow the person to execute a notice to appear
Well, there ya go.

Date of birth? Hmm. What is the purpose of providing this data?

Anyway, as the underlined clearly indicates, a cop will use this to his advantage to violate your rights.
 

color of law

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Well, there ya go.

Date of birth? Hmm. What is the purpose of providing this data?

Anyway, as the underlined clearly indicates, a cop will use this to his advantage to violate your rights.
With name and date of birth they get your social security number.

Without RAS you can flush believes in good faith down the toilet.
 

OC for ME

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With name and date of birth they get your social security number.

Without RAS you can flush believes in good faith down the toilet.
What investigative purpose does a date of birth support? Same with SSN. Unless, of course, age is a element of the crime being investigated.

(1) inform the person of the allegation;
This is where the cop can be placed in legal peril...record his words.
 
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