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Unlicensed OC within 1,000ft of a school?

WalkingWolf

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Once SCOTUS changes expect enforcement of GFSZA, and IMO don't count on a permit that does not specifically point out it is good in school zones to save you. "License to do so" IMO is very clear the permit of license MUST spell out carry in a GFSZ. Right now the feds are not going to chance their precious unconstitutional law ending up in the supreme court.
 

MAC702

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The law IS on the books. A federal law CAN be enforced by a local LEO. If the charge is brought, it must go up the chain, right?

Is it remotely possible to get a LEO and DA on board, and sacrifice a willing participant and force it to go up now? Yes, I know what that means. I'm just thinking out loud. Man, if I was one of the millions of jobless Americans needing a roof over my head and three squares a day while doing something for the greater good, I'd consider it.

We still get free cable TV, right?
 
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eye95

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If I understand what you are saying, you are suggesting getting an officer and a DA to go along with charging a volunteer for nothing more than violating a federal GFSZ in order to get this into the legal system so that the law can be struck down.

Interesting concept. Good idea if we can find volunteers.

Are we sure we can't get this into the courts without a [strike]perpetrator[/strike]...er...victim? I know some rights issues have been fought in court without a criminal defendant under the idea of [I think it is called] prior restraint. Cuz we need to get this law off the books before our tyrant has the chance to appoint another SC justice.
 
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color of law

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JMHO.....

18 USC 922(q) is unconstitutional. The Supreme Court has made that clear in Lopez and has reaffirmed that in their resent Health Care law decision (National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius, 567 U.S. ___ (2012)) explaining the commerce clause. The commerce clause cannot be used to get around the Bill of Rights.

18 USC 922 dealing with guns in school zones is, as Lopez made clear, not in commerce.

It is well settled that Congress has broad authority to regulate interstate commerce, but that authority is not unlimited. The Supreme Court stated in Gibbons v. Ogden, 22 U.S. 1, 3, 6 L.Ed. 23 (1824), “The power to regulate commerce is general, and has no limitations but such as are prescribed in the constitution itself.” The principle that Congress’ power to regulate interstate commerce is limited by the Constitution was reiterated in United States v. Lopez, 514 U.S. 549, 552-116 S.Ct. 1624, 131 L.Ed2d 626 (1995), where the Supreme reaffirmed Gibbons with the following statement:

We start with first principles. The Constitution creates a Federal Government of enumerated powers. See Art. I, § 8. As James Madison wrote: "The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite." The Federalist No. 45, pp. 292-293 (C. Rossiter ed. 1961). This constitutionally mandated division of authority "was adopted by the Framers to ensure protection of our fundamental liberties." Gregory v .Ashcroft, 501 U.S. 452, 458 (1991) (internal quotation marks omitted). "Just as the separation and independence of the coordinate branches of the Federal Government serve to prevent the accumulation of excessive power in any one branch, a healthy balance of power between the States and the Federal Government will reduce the risk of tyranny and abuse from either front." Ibid.
The Constitution delegates to Congress the power "[t]o regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes." Art. I, § 8, cl. 3. The Court, through Chief Justice Marshall, first defined the nature of Congress' commerce power in Gibbons v.Ogden, 9 Wheat. 1, 189-190 (1824):
"Commerce, undoubtedly, is traffic, but it is something more: it is intercourse. It describes the commercial intercourse between nations, and parts of nations, in all its branches, and is regulated by prescribing rules for carrying on that intercourse."
The commerce power "is the power to regulate; that is, to prescribe the rule by which commerce is to be governed. This power, like all others vested in congress, is complete in itself, may be exercised to its utmost extent, and acknowledges no limitations, other than are prescribed in the constitution." Id., at 196. The Gibbons Court, however, acknowledged that limitations on the commerce power are inherent in the very language of the Commerce Clause.

Again, National Federation of Independent Business v. Selelius, No. 11-393, Slip Opinion, June 28, 2012 confirms the principle that the interstate commerce powers of Congress does in deed have limits.

Quoting from McCulloch v. Maryland, 17 (4 Wheat) U.S. 316, 405, 4 L.Ed.579 (1819), Chief Justice Roberts stated,
Quote:
“The Federal Government ‘is acknowledged by all to be one of enumerated powers.’ Ibid. That is, rather than granting general authority to perform all the conceivable functions of government, the Constitution lists, or enumerates, the Federal Government’s powers.” See page 2 of Slip Opinion.

Further affirmation of the limitations of Bill of Right on Congress regarding the commerce powers is explained on page 3 of the Slip Opinion.

“Today, the restrictions on government power foremost in many Americans’ minds are likely to be affirmative prohibitions, such as contained in the Bill of Rights. These affirmative prohibitions come into play, however, only where the Government possesses authority to act in the first place. If no enumerated power authorizes Congress to pass a certain law, that law may not be enacted, even if it would not violate any of the express prohibitions in the Bill of Rights or elsewhere in the Constitution.
Indeed, the Constitution did not initially include a Bill of Rights at least partly because the Framers felt the enumeration of powers sufficed to restrain the Government. As Alexander Hamilton put it, ‘the Constitution is itself, in every rational sense, and to every useful purpose, A BILL OF RIGHTS.’ The Federalist No. 84, p. 515 (C. Rossiter ed. 1961). And when the Bill of Rights was ratified, it made express what the enumeration of powers necessarily implied: “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution . . . are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.” U. S. Const., Amdt. 10. The Federal Government has expanded dramatically over the past two centuries, but it still must show that a constitutional grant of power authorizes each of its actions. See, e.g., United States v. Comstock, 560 U. S. ___ (2010).”

Congress fixed nothing. Lopez made it clear the commerce clause will not fly under any circumstances.
United States v. Lopez, 514 U.S. 549.

Held: The Act exceeds Congress’ Commerce Clause authority. First, although this Court has upheld a wide variety of congressional Acts regulating intrastate economic activity that substantially affected interstate commerce, the possession of a gun in a local school zone is in no sense an economic activity that might, through repetition elsewhere, have such a substantial effect on interstate commerce...

To uphold the Government’s contention that § 922(q) is justified because firearms possession in a local school zone does indeed substantially affect interstate commerce would require this Court to pile inference upon inference in a manner that would bid fair to convert congressional Commerce Clause authority to a general police power of the sort held only by the States.

Some will tell you that federal law - 18 USC 922(q) disallows open carry in school zones. And the statute does say that. But, since Congress amended 18 USC 922(q) there has been one court that I know of that has upheld Congresses changes; United States v. Danks, 221 F.3d 1037 (8th Cir. 1999). Its decision is contrary to what Lopez said.

Hodel v. Virginia Surface Mining & Reclamation Assn., Inc., 452 U.S. 264 (1981), United States v. Lopez, 514 U. S. 549 (1995) and Gonzales v. Raich, 545 U.S. 1 (2005) all made it clear that under the Commerce Clause Congress is required to show a tangible link to commerce, not a mere conceivable rational relation. “imply because Congress may conclude that a particular activity substantially affects interstate commerce does not necessarily make it so.” See Lopez, supra, at 557, n. 2 (quoting Hodel, supra, at 311 (Rehnquist, J., concurring in judgment).

The Lopez Court made it clear that the Commerce Clause would not carry the day when it comes to carrying a gun in a school zone.

The possession of a gun in a local school zone is in no sense an economic activity that might, through repetition elsewhere, substantially affect any sort of interstate commerce. Respondent was a local student at a local school; there is no indication that he had recently moved in interstate commerce, and there is no requirement that his possession of the firearm have any concrete tie to interstate commerce.
To uphold the Government's contentions here, we would have to pile inference upon inference in a manner that would bid fair to convert congressional authority under the Commerce Clause to a general police power of the sort retained by the States. Admittedly, some of our prior cases have taken long steps down that road, giving great deference to congressional action. See supra, at 556-558. The broad language in these opinions has suggested the possibility of additional expansion, but we decline here to proceed any further. To do so would require us to conclude that the Constitution's enumeration of powers does not presuppose something not enumerated, cf. Gibbons v. Ogden, supra, at 195, and that there never will be a distinction between what is truly national and what is truly local, cf. Jones & Laughlin Steel, supra, at 30. This we are unwilling to do.

I suggest you read Lopez yourself.

Can anyone cite a federal case where someone has been prosecuted for just carrying a gun in a school zone since the Lopez decision?
 

cablebob

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Iowa
Iowa Code section 724.4B specifically states that bringing weapons onto the grounds of a school is a class D felony. The only exceptions to having a firearm on school grounds are if:

The person is a peace officer, member of the armed forces or National Guard, or correctional officer, who is carrying the weapon in connection with his or her duties as such; or
The weapon is unloaded, inside a closed and fastened container or securely wrapped package or in the luggage or cargo compartment (i.e., trunk) of a vehicle; or
The school has specifically authorized the person to bring the weapon onto school grounds, such as for purposes of conducting an instructional program regarding firearms.
 

MKEgal

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MAC702 said:
in the states I frequent, we completely ignore this unconstitutional, unenforced "law."
Many of us OC near schools with no license throughout NV, AZ, and UT.
UT follows federal law - any licensee may be armed within the "GF"SZ, even within the school.

WalkingWolf said:
don't count on a permit that does not specifically point out it is good in school zones to save you. "License to do so" IMO is very clear the permit of license MUST spell out carry in a GFSZ.
18USC922(q)(2)
(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone.

(B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm— . . . (ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified under law to receive the license
I've never seen your interpretation before, and I disagree, but I can see how you got it.
 

MAC702

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UT follows federal law - any licensee may be armed within the "GF"SZ, even within the school. ...

I'm not sure I understand what you are clarifying. I'm referring to unlicensed persons. UT, like most free states, has had no enforcement that I know of of this federal law.
 

WalkingWolf

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I'm not sure I understand what you are clarifying. I'm referring to unlicensed persons. UT, like most free states, has had no enforcement that I know of of this federal law.

NC has had no enforcement of the federal law here either. Even though NC law invokes federal law on where a person is prohibited from carry. But then states do not enforce many federal laws, and AFAIK only the federal government can prosecute federal laws.
 

eye95

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I'm not sure I understand what you are clarifying. I'm referring to unlicensed persons. UT, like most free states, has had no enforcement that I know of of this federal law.

What do you mean by "has no enforcement"? If you mean that they do not have a specific plan in effect to find and arrest folks breaking this particular federal law, I bet they don't.

If you mean that Utah State and local LEOs don't have the authority to arrest someone if those LEOs have probable cause to believe that that someone has broken the federal GFSZ law, I bet they do have that authority.
 

1245A Defender

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Well,,,

What do you mean by "has no enforcement"? If you mean that they do not have a specific plan in effect to find and arrest folks breaking this particular federal law, I bet they don't.

If you mean that Utah State and local LEOs don't have the authority to arrest someone if those LEOs have probable cause to believe that that someone has broken the federal GFSZ law, I bet they do have that authority.

You really need to take some of your own advice,,, give us a CITE!!!

I dont believe that the state or local LEO have the authority, inclination or desire to enforce the GFSZ act!
In fact, I dont think the FED wants to enforce the GFSZ act either!!!

Just check all the GFSZ act charges that happen in Vermont, where nobody has a free pass/permission slip...
 

eye95

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I am making no contentions, so no cite is needed.

Another poster is making a contention, and I am questioning him on it. He says that Utah "has no enforcement." I am asking what he means by this. If he means that State and local LEOs have no enforcement authority, it is up to him to provide a cite to back up that contention.

I'd be willing to bet that he can't.

Does that clear things up a bit for you? Not that I care if it did or it did not.

Moving on from you in anticipation of the other poster responding to my query.
 

scouser

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That's a federal law, someone correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the US Supreme Court rule in Mack & Printz vs US http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/95-1478.ZO.html in 1997 that

Supreme Court of the United States said:
"The majority arrives at the conclusion that allowing the Federal government to draft the police officers of the 50 states into its service would increase its powers far beyond what the Constitution intends".

In other words you're going to need a federal LEO to enforce a federal gun free zone, it's out of the jurisdiction of local & state.
 

WalkingWolf

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You really need to take some of your own advice,,, give us a CITE!!!

I dont believe that the state or local LEO have the authority, inclination or desire to enforce the GFSZ act!
In fact, I dont think the FED wants to enforce the GFSZ act either!!!

Just check all the GFSZ act charges that happen in Vermont, where nobody has a free pass/permission slip...

State and local police only have the authority that their state and local gov gives them. In most cases unless it is written in state statutes no they do not have the authority. That is why there are so many US Deputy Marshall on the books, who are not actually paid US Deputy Marshall. We had one here killed in the line of duty that was actually a county sheriffs deputy, but it was reported as a USDM. He was on a fugitive task force, and to act on federal law they gave him a commission. They hand them out like candy.

It also works the other way, sheriffs hand out non merit commissions to federal officers so they can enforce state and local laws. IMO the AZ immigration ruling makes it against the law for a local or state to enforce federal law without a commission. And no I agree that the feds do not want to take a chance on the law ending up in SCOTUS's lap, at least until their is a shift in the court.
 

MAC702

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...I dont believe that the state or local LEO have the authority, inclination or desire to enforce the GFSZ act!
In fact, I dont think the FED wants to enforce the GFSZ act either!!!

I've always understood that all sworn law enforcement officers can enforce federal laws. Think of other very serious federal offenses, and wouldn't a local cop have the authority/responsibility to arrest for them?

But I agree that the fedgov would be quite embarrassed if this law was actually enforced in the free states.
 

EMNofSeattle

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Once SCOTUS changes expect enforcement of GFSZA, and IMO don't count on a permit that does not specifically point out it is good in school zones to save you. "License to do so" IMO is very clear the permit of license MUST spell out carry in a GFSZ. Right now the feds are not going to chance their precious unconstitutional law ending up in the supreme court.

Wrong, federal courts have already ruled that state permits exempt one from the GFSZA without special inclusion by state statute nessecary.

The feds will not enforce it regardless of who is on the supreme court other then as a tack on charge to people no one cares about like drug dealers.... first off enforcing the law would require all kinds of federal resources especially since law abiding citizens with the financial backing of gun rights groups will challenge it all the way up and congress critters live off of scandal involving their constietients. look at the girl in Pennsylvania who couldn't get a lung transplant. her congresswoman and Senator Toomey wasted no time taking this to the media, and made Sebelius come down from her dark office to the television camera for the first time in forever to defend a policy which got restrained by a federal court after she wouldn't do anything......
 
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EMNofSeattle

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I've always understood that all sworn law enforcement officers can enforce federal laws. Think of other very serious federal offenses, and wouldn't a local cop have the authority/responsibility to arrest for them?

But I agree that the fedgov would be quite embarrassed if this law was actually enforced in the free states.

I can't provide cites since this is not legally verified, but a Sheriff's Deputy in Kitsap County once told me he said if they knew someone had violated federal law and was wanted with a warrant for their arrest they could hold them and arrange for the feds to pick them up... he said he was told that they could theoretically hold someone for federal violations and contact the FBI field office but said he was never aware of this being done since most federal laws are either A) have state analogs a person can be officially arrested and charged with B) laws that local cops do not enforce by policy (i.e. Immigration) or C) regulatory issues that are never dealt with by actual law enforcement.... so take that for what it's worth.

As far as embaressment, I'll link when I find it, but when Wyoming went Constitutional Carry there was an article in some WY newspaper about just this topic, and they actually contacted the US Attorney's office in Cheyenne and the US Attorney said "we haven't charged anyone with this in the 15 years I've worked here" and then when told about the 1000 foot buffer with no permit he told the reporter "Why would we charge anyone under those circumstances?" is what I remember....
 

WalkingWolf

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Wrong, federal courts have already ruled that state permits exempt one from the GFSZA without special inclusion by state statute nessecary.

The feds will not enforce it regardless of who is on the supreme court other then as a tack on charge to people no one cares about like drug dealers.... first off enforcing the law would require all kinds of federal resources especially since law abiding citizens with the financial backing of gun rights groups will challenge it all the way up and congress critters live off of scandal involving their constietients. look at the girl in Pennsylvania who couldn't get a lung transplant. her congresswoman and Senator Toomey wasted no time taking this to the media, and made Sebelius come down from her dark office to the television camera for the first time in forever to defend a policy which got restrained by a federal court after she wouldn't do anything......

I must have missed these court rulings. Cite them please?
 

EMNofSeattle

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I must have missed these court rulings. Cite them please?

United States v. Tait

a man with an alabama permit assaulted a student while visiting an Alabama school carrying a gun.

There were actually several parts to this ruling.

1) Tait had a Michigan felony conviction but at least at the time of the ruling disabilities were removed upon release from custody of the Corrections Department by default. the feds tried to prosecute him for felon in possession, the federal district court dismissed that charge and the 11th circuit upheld the dismissal.

2) Tait had an alabama permit, the government argued that since Alabama statute did not require verification that Tait was legal under federal law to possess a firearm that it did not qualify. the 11th circuit ruled that it only matter the Alabama sheriff ensured Tait had been qualified under ALABAMA law and not federal law. very interesting opinion actually that in my opinion emasculates the GFSZA in that circuit.

here is the text of the opinion.

http://openjurist.org/202/f3d/1320/united-states-v-tait
 

WalkingWolf

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United States v. Tait

a man with an alabama permit assaulted a student while visiting an Alabama school carrying a gun.

There were actually several parts to this ruling.

1) Tait had a Michigan felony conviction but at least at the time of the ruling disabilities were removed upon release from custody of the Corrections Department by default. the feds tried to prosecute him for felon in possession, the federal district court dismissed that charge and the 11th circuit upheld the dismissal.

2) Tait had an alabama permit, the government argued that since Alabama statute did not require verification that Tait was legal under federal law to possess a firearm that it did not qualify. the 11th circuit ruled that it only matter the Alabama sheriff ensured Tait had been qualified under ALABAMA law and not federal law. very interesting opinion actually that in my opinion emasculates the GFSZA in that circuit.

here is the text of the opinion.

http://openjurist.org/202/f3d/1320/united-states-v-tait

I'll go through it, but from what you have posted it has absolutely nothing to do with GFSZA, it has to do with a felon in possession. Tell please I will not waste my time by researching this ruling, and you are being honest? If not own up to it now, because I will use it over you forever if not truthful.

Awwww YOU did leave out information, the fact that Tait's gun rights had been restored. If Michigan law allows a permit as a license to do so then it would make sense that those charges were dismissed. In NC a permit is NOT a license to do so, and it is spelled out. That all places prohibited by federal law are prohibited by state law. Even if it is not a federal felony, state can charge a misdemeanor and seize the permit. The fact is it is not done, probably because most police have never read the laws.
 
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