• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Who are our Friends?

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
8,397
Location
here nc
We could, and should, and that and other's words of the time is an interesting study. Still, ultimately, the words "people", "arms", and "infringed" are the power of the 2nd Amendment. Jump forward 200+ years and there are many so many instances of that contract not only being infringed, but forcefully denied to me personally, that light conversation fades in relevance. I feel urgency is necessary to keep evil deeds from dominating the land.
HLB
people ~ white males ~ not female; not negros; not natives;
arm ~ proper terminology from the period is “bear arms” ~ to form citizen manned militias to defend the homeland

So HLB, please clarify what is being ’forcefully denied to you personally’ ?
 

HLB

Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2019
Messages
37
people ~ white males ~ not female; not negros; not natives;
arm ~ proper terminology from the period is “bear arms” ~ to form citizen manned militias to defend the homeland

So HLB, please clarify what is being ’forcefully denied to you personally’ ?
Solus, I would have to say Citizens of the United States.

As for my direct interactions with the authorities, I do not feel comfortable going there at this time and this place. Perhaps a thread to that effect, if Open Carry members chose to participate, would be in order. After all, standing is considered significant in judicial proceedings.

HLB
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
8,397
Location
here nc
Solus, I would have to say Citizens of the United States.

As for my direct interactions with the authorities, I do not feel comfortable going there at this time and this place. Perhaps a thread to that effect, if Open Carry members chose to participate, would be in order. After all, standing is considered significant in judicial proceedings.

HLB
HLB, so you have just conflated terms...people & citizens last time I checked the term citizens was not used in the verbiage of the 2nd amendment!

That stated, the people or citizens of the period were not women, negros slaves, free negros, natives were not considered citizens!
[The Supreme Court's 1857 Dred Scott decision declared that negros even if they were not slaves, were not citizens.]
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,189
Location
White Oak Plantation
...could be wrong, the USSC has opined that "the people" refers to all in the USA...perhaps CoL has the ruling at his fingertips...his uncanny ability to profer rulings is truly extra ordinary.
 

solus

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
8,397
Location
here nc
Alas, OC for ME, et al., this is the ‘modern’ and current interpretation of the term citizen...not people..

but in USSC MINOR v. HAPPERSETT [1874] [ https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/88/162.html ] quote:
The fourteenth amendment to the Constitution of the United States, in its first section, thus ordains:
  • 'All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States, and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law, which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States. Nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction, the equal protection of the laws.'
And the constitution of the State of Missouri thus ordains:
  • 'Every male citizen of the United States shall be entitled to vote.'
[Judgement]
We can only act upon her rights as they exist. It is not for us to look at the hardship of withholding. Our duty is at an end if we find it is within the power of a State to withhold.

Being unanimously of the opinion that the Constitution of the United States does not confer the right of suffrage upon any one, and that the constitutions and laws of the several States which commit that important trust to men alone are not necessarily void, we

AFFIRM THE JUDGMENT. unquote.

Fortunately, over the years changes to the definition have been officially made to the constitution and are succinctly defined and not broad-based of what the citizens believe/think/feel the terms mean!

To your specific dichotomy my search only turned up vague and sometimes extremely biased definitions of the term citizen not specific criteria.
 

color of law

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
5,026
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
...could be wrong, the USSC has opined that "the people" refers to all in the USA...perhaps CoL has the ruling at his fingertips...his uncanny ability to profer rulings is truly extra ordinary.
Well, well, well, that is a tall order. The USSC really won't be much help. Let me explain.
Before the 14th. Amendment.
Bouvier Law Dictionary, 1856.
CITIZEN, persons. One who, under the constitution and laws of the United States, has a right to vote for representatives in congress, and other public officers, and who is qualified to fill offices in the gift of the people. In a more extended sense, under the word citizen, are included all white persons born in the United States, and naturalized persons born out of the same, who have not lost their right as such. This includes men, women, and children.
PEOPLE. A state; as, the people of the state of New York; a nation in its collective and political capacity. 4 T. R. 783. See 6 Pet. S. C. Rep. 467.
PERSON. This word is applied to men, women and children, who are called natural persons. In law, man and person are not exactly synonymous terms. Any human being is a man, whether he be a member of society or not, whatever may be the rank he holds, or whatever may be his age, sex, &c. A person is a man considered according to the rank he holds in society, with all the
rights to which the place he holds entitles him, and the duties which it imposes. 1 Bouv. Inst. n. 137.
After the 14th. Amendment.
Black’s Law Dictionary, 1990.
Citizen.
One who, under the Constitution and laws of the United States, or of a particular state, is a member of the political community, owing allegiance and being entitled to the enjoyment of full civil rights. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. U.S.Const., 14th Amend. See Citizenship.
People. A state; as the people of the state of New York. A nation in its collective and political capacity. The aggregate or mass of the individuals who constitute the state. Loi Hoa v. Nagle, C.C.A.Cal., 13 F.2d 80, 81. In a more restricted sense, and as generally used in constitutional
law, the entire body of those citizens of a state or nation who are invested with political power for political purposes. See also Citizen; Person.
Person. In general usage, a human being (i.e. natural person), though by statute term may include labor organizations, partnerships, associations, corporations, legal representatives, trustees, trustees in bankruptcy, or receivers. See e.g. National Labor Relations Act, § 2(1),
29 U.S.C.A. § 152; Uniform Partnership Act, § 2. Scope and delineation of term is necessary for determining those to whom Fourteenth Amendment of Constitution affords protection since this Amendment expressly applies to "person."
The problem is that those terms may have many different definitions as defined per statute.

As I always say: what are the three most important things in law? Definition, definition and definition.

You don't know what you are eating without a scorecard.
 
Top