Be prepared to deal with LE at some time or another (even at Belmar)

[JamesB]

Man, this thread is a constant reminder to me that I need to find a good budget recorder to add to my carry arsenal.

And sadly with all my experiences with law enforcement, I still have yet to do that myself.

*Note to self... purchase voice recorder...

 

[since9]

*Note to self... purchase voice recorder...

Linky.

I've got a Sony unit I used in school, but it's clutzy. I sometimes carry my camera, and that's easier, with one button operation and between 10 and 30 minutes record time, but when I slip it back into my pocket, all I get it good audio and unusable video.

I'm looking for a good pen unit with automatic overwrite so that I can just let it go all the time. With a pen cam stuck in a breast pocket, it should record things in front quite well. Should anything happen, I can hit the stop button at the end and preserve it.

 

[RockyMtnScotsman]

If you've already got an Android / iPhone you can probably just use that as your recorder with either a bundled and downloaded app.

 

[Polynikes]

If you've already got an Android / iPhone you can probably just use that as your recorder with either a bundled and downloaded app.

The closest I have to either of those is an 8GB iPod Touch. Perhaps I should look into getting a pair of headphones with an in-line mic.

 

[mahkagari]

If you've already got an Android / iPhone you can probably just use that as your recorder with either a bundled and downloaded app.

I've been using mine that way, but having to thumb through the apps is taking longer than I'd like. I'm probably going to be in the market for a rechargeable, one touch record, affordable key fob or the like.

 

[Kingfish]

I've been using mine that way, but having to thumb through the apps is taking longer than I'd like. I'm probably going to be in the market for a rechargeable, one touch record, affordable key fob or the like.

If you have an android...
Voice Recorder

Includes a widget...One touch recording on the home screen.

 

[bogidu]

If I may weigh in . . . .

http://www.veho-uk.com/main/shop_detail.aspx?article=44 50$ on ebay and the video quality is quite good for something so tiny. I was quite surprised at the heft of something so small, doesn't feel cheaply made.

 

[Fallschirjmäger]

"... The female officer finally got off the phone and told me to go ahead and head out while reminding me of the signs posted in the garage and that everything was fine since I didn't have my firearm concealed and I was in a public area. She also reminded me that in the future I would probably have a "hard time because I was open carrying..."

"A hard time? Well, can I pencil you in for Thursday then? Tell ya what, why don't you give me your card and I'll give you a call every time I go out, openly carrying? I'll even call every time my location changes, although that might be 20 or 30 times a day."

The rule I've developed is....Never, NEVER carry a license unless performing a licensed activity. My driving license stays in the sun visor of my car; it's there every time I need it, even if I've forgotten my wallet at home. Anywhere that I need identification for... I'll Guarantee that I've driven there and my license will be with me when I arrive. I don't 'need' identification to walk around with, and I don't carry a license to do that.

 

[JamesB]

Thanks for weighing in and your offer of support, sudden valley gunner! I agree with your opinion of what constitutes a detainment and arrest. Detaining me took up my time when I could have been doing other things; not allowing me to go about my business or inhibiting my freedom of movement is an arrest. It's too bad the courts have a different opinion.

I'm going to be heading over to the Lakewood PD in a few minutes to get a copy of the training manual.

Did anyone ever aquire one of those??

 

[Raymond0609]

I walk to belmar all the time and now that I know I can I will be OCing my 40. And if you did acquire a police manual I would like to know where so I can pick one up as well. Guess I need to invest in a recorder. Or try and find a good app for my phone. Keep us posted and IMHO you need to follow the advice and sue them and press for charges against the leo that drawled down on you!

 

[hermannr]

I am an amateur radio operator who enjoys monitoring Lakewood PD frequencies. I also monitor the South sector dispatch since I live in the area. A couple of weeks ago I heard one of the very same Agents that contacted you call on the radio that there was a man walking a large dog with a pistol in a holster on his hip through Belmar the Agent stated that the male was walking and not causing any problems just to inform dispatch. I remember telling my wife about the Agents reaction to an OCer and how pleased I was with his restraint. So yesterday when I heard the call I was very surprised to hear the same Agent that saw you two weeks ago was part of this TAKE DOWN TEAM. I knew you were a seasoned OCer when I heard that a Sergeant was requested and when one of the male officer called out in a huff that he was clear when the Sergeant called on scene that this was a HUGE mishandling on their part. Look I support and appreciate the professionalism of the Lakewood Police Department that is why I am surprised and disappointed in the serious lack of restraint by these Agents to your Constitutional Rights. I will whole heartedly support a decision to obtain counsel and hold these Agents accountable for their lack of professionalism that they must adhere to on a daily bases. Please keep us informed about this and continue to OC in Belmar because your story inspires me to OC in Belmar more frequently. If you PM me I might be able to give you info that could help with some of your info search.

It is the "gang" principle. When you encounter one officer (except some rare ones) they are not going out on a limb, when you have 4 or 6, that can all back up each others story and cover each others backside... (even lie for each other...as a certain Sgt. in the Spokane PD http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Thompson-resigns-from-Spokane-PD-2270325.php who is now headed for prison has found out) That is why you are very lucky you had a recorder on you.

 

[MTalarasB]

This was at the Bel Mar Park at Alameda and Wadsworth? Right by the Lakewood Police Station?
If so, you and I need to meet up there someday.
OPEN CARRYING, of course.

Trying to set up a meet & greet near Belmar

http://opencarrycolorado.com/forums/index.php/topic,153.0.html

 

[GTShooter]

I live 5 minutes away from Belmar, maybe one day we should get together and do a M&G there.

 

[LESGTINCT]

Howdy Lockster!
I highlighted specific portions of your response to my reply in order to address those specific points. Let's start with the first one.

You turn to discover an officer with a drawn pistol. Regardless of where it was pointed, it was both a direct and overt threat to you in particular, and public safety in general. Cops have a history of accidental discharge too. It is a basic rule that you do not draw your weapon unless you are prepared to fire it. You were going about your law abiding business only to be confronted with a threat against your life and liberty. Even with the weapon pointed at the ground (I assume pavement or concrete) an accidental richochet would bounce straight up and hit.... YOU!!! Unacceptable behavior.

If you do not like the word lawsuit, I understand. Call it what it really is, and what the founding fathers called it: Redress of grievances. That is the Constitutional method for dealing with violation of your rights. Redress of grievances is to hold the government (and its agents) responsible for such violations. It is the responsibility of the citizen thus abused to exercise their right to petion the government for redress of such grievance. Otherwise, it is tantamont to defacto abdication of those rights by tacit consent (they got away with it, ergo will continue to usurp such rights).

the next point is that law enforcement officers are oathbound to support and defend the constitution of the United States and whatever jurisdiction they serve. They have sworn an oath before God to defend your rights, not abuse them. God may hold them accountable in the next life, but you must act in defense of your rights in this one.

Finally, how many other citizens did they stop that day to determine whether they might be a feleon? Just you? Because you were armed against assault by a felon? Well, you were feloniously (in my opinion) threatened. So who's the felon at the outset? In addition, you were not engaged in the commission of a crime, so where is their RAS to confront you, let alone with drawn weapons? Considering they never learned your identity, they never did figure out whether you were a felon or not. Therefore, the whole stop was silly, a waste of everybody's time, an infringement on your rights and a threat against your life (drawn weapon).

When police officers violate the law, there is no law. Hold them to account.
And it is terrific you got the recording. Way to go amigo!

Best of luck and continued happy OC'ing and safe travels.

Blessings,
M-Taliesin

You can draw your firearm, at the low ready and not use it if you perceive a threat. If you POINT your firearm at your target and put your finger on the TRIGGER you better be prepared to fire it. LEO's are trained to index at the low ready so I think your richochet and threat to life thought is a little much. Cops have a history of accidental discharge? Could you show me stats where this is a common occurrence? FYI I am on the OCers side in regards to his rights but I find that people make some wrong judgements, about LEO's, because they are mad about what happened. Try to remember that you are not an LEO and don't know LEO training, policies and procedures. Follow the proper procedures in filing a complaint with the PD and consult an attorney if you want.

 

[F350]

Not being argumentative, but I need a link to case law that shows that LEO does not have the right to see if an open carrier is a felon. Does Terry say that?

Seems to me that given it is illegal for a felon to possess a firearm, that there may be a logical reason to determine if an OCer has a felonious history, even absent the RAS defined in Terry.

I guess what I am really looking for is what to say to a LEO who stops me and says, "I don't know who you are or if you are a felon, therefore you must show me ID so I can determine that you are not prohibited from possessing a firearm."

I bolded the phrase because it seems to me that it's different than being allowed to carry a firearm, which is our right in many states.

It just seems to me that this has become a standard phrase that LEOs have been taught to use when confronting an OCer, much like they seem to have been taught to yell "Stop resisting!" when they are cuffing a detainee, whether the detainee is resisting or not, just in case anyone is observing or recording.

OK; not just you JamesCanby, this is something that just rubs the wrong way....... CITIZENS have rights; government and their minions have AUTHORITY; rights are endowed by the creator upon the citizen and are inviolate; authority is granted to government by the citizens and can be withdrawn.

 

[Fuller Malarkey]

You can draw your firearm, at the low ready and not use it if you perceive a threat. If you POINT your firearm at your target and put your finger on the TRIGGER you better be prepared to fire it. LEO's are trained to index at the low ready so I think your richochet and threat to life thought is a little much. Cops have a history of accidental discharge? Could you show me stats where this is a common occurrence? FYI I am on the OCers side in regards to his rights but I find that people make some wrong judgements, about LEO's, because they are mad about what happened. Try to remember that you are not an LEO and don't know LEO training, policies and procedures. Follow the proper procedures in filing a complaint with the PD and consult an attorney if you want.

I try to keep my opinions fact based:

[video=youtube;pv89_3rrW8Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pv89_3rrW8Y[/video]

http://examiner-enterprise.com/sections/news/local-news/two-injured-automatic-weapon-mishap.html


http://forums.officer.com/t83832/

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/06/nyregion/06bank.html?_r=1&hp

http://forums.officer.com/t2112/

http://forums.officer.com/t113923/

It appears to be a common phenomenon. While police do have access to far more training, something that may separate open carrying citizens from police when it comes to safe, knowledgeable handling of firearms is the accountability. The armed citizen may be held accountable for their actions, and take greater safeguards and responsibility in handling firearms.

 

[Gray Rider]

Curiosity vs. suspicion

Observing someone doing something that is per se legal (OC w/ no license required) does not constitute articulable reasonable suspicion to detain them.

Were the officer to see something which would commonly be associated with felons- such as an ankle bracelet or prison tatoo - reasonable suspicion would then exist. Remember what the officer needs for a stop is an articulable "clue", which is a lesser standard than "conclusive". (A few misdemeanants wear ankle bracelets and a few non felons think it is cool to have prison tatoos.)

Officers sometimes over-reach for a variety of reasons. Some are ignorant, some are hoplophobic, some are on an ego trip. Avoid baiting and profanity, record if legal to do so, ask for a supervisor; never physically resist arrest including passive resistance.

The best officer misbehavior modification comes through administrative complaints or court suits, so follow up.

 

[LESGTINCT]

I try to keep my opinions fact based:

[video=youtube;pv89_3rrW8Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pv89_3rrW8Y[/video]

http://examiner-enterprise.com/sections/news/local-news/two-injured-automatic-weapon-mishap.html


http://forums.officer.com/t83832/

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/06/nyregion/06bank.html?_r=1&hp

http://forums.officer.com/t2112/

http://forums.officer.com/t113923/

It appears to be a common phenomenon. While police do have access to far more training, something that may separate open carrying citizens from police when it comes to safe, knowledgeable handling of firearms is the accountability. The armed citizen may be held accountable for their actions, and take greater safeguards and responsibility in handling firearms.

It appears to be a common phenomenon. While police do have access to far more training, something that may separate open carrying citizens from police when it comes to safe, knowledgeable handling of firearms is the accountability. The armed citizen may be held accountable for their actions, and take greater safeguards and responsibility in handling firearms.[/QUOTE]

I'm not arguing that it does happen but you make it seem like it happens frequently. Again, show me states where this is a frequent occurrence. You show six examples. So six accidental discharges of the hundreds of thousands of PO's in the country, of the hundreds of thousands of times they draw their firearms. I hardly call that a common occurrence. I have seen that video as it is several years old. It actually proves my point. Having your finger on the trigger means you intend to shoot.

 

[Fuller Malarkey]

I'm not arguing that it does happen but you make it seem like it happens frequently. Again, show me states where this is a frequent occurrence. You show six examples. So six accidental discharges of the hundreds of thousands of PO's in the country, of the hundreds of thousands of times they draw their firearms. I hardly call that a common occurrence. I have seen that video as it is several years old. It actually proves my point. Having your finger on the trigger means you intend to shoot.

I'm kinda busy, but I think the search results sum it well:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=police+negligent+discharges

About 1,430,000 results (0.16 seconds) for police negligent discharges

Armed and Unready


By Jeff Leen and Sari Horwitz
Washington Post Staff Writers

"there have been more than 120 accidental discharges of police handguns. Police officers have killed at least one citizen they didn't intend to kill and have wounded at least nine citizens they didn't intend to wound. Nineteen officers have shot themselves or other officers accidentally. At least eight victims or surviving relatives have sued the District alleging injuries from accidental discharges."

"A Washington Post investigation found that 75 percent of all D.C. officers involved in shootings failed to comply with the retraining regulation. One officer waited so long to come to the range that firearms instructors found a spider nest growing inside his Glock."

Not sure where to put this one; Accidental discharge, negligent discharge, or it's possible that discharge-while-pistol-whipping-a-boy is SOP?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EIzDFeVNm8

I have no idea regarding the objectivity of this source:

"One of the dirty little secrets in the annals of police firearms training is the number of accidental discharges we experience"

http://www.policeone.com/police-pro...Causes-and-cures-for-the-negligent-discharge/

You were trying to make a point........ "LEO's are trained to index at the low ready so I think your richochet and threat to life thought is a little much. Cops have a history of accidental discharge? Could you show me stats where this is a common occurrence?

So am I.....in spite of the available training, there appears to be high enough incidence of discharges of police weapons that justifies a threat concern for everybody.

 

[carracer]

Any further developments on the original topic?