Mr Birdman
Regular Member
Can any one tell me if in Pa you have to tell the LEO who just stopped you for a traffic infraction, that you are carrying in your car?
Title 18 Part I. Article G. Chapter 61. Subchapter A. § 6122. Proof of License and Exception.
(a) General Rule.
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When carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle, an individual licensed to carry a firearm shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement officer, produce the license for inspection. Failure to produce such license either at the time of arrest or at the preliminary hearing shall create a rebuttable presumption of nonlicensure.
5th amendment out the window?
Nowhere in Pennsylvania are you required to inform that you're carrying. Now, if the police officer sees the firearm, or you volunteer that you have one, then that's a whole different ball of wax.
If stopped for an alleged motor vehicle infraction, you are not required to respond to an officer's query about firearms since that's not the reason for the traffic stop. Stay silent when asked. If asked such, put the ball back in the officer's court by asking if that's why you were stopped. Or stay silent.
^^^ this. But FYI, the officers now know you have a LTCF when they run your license. With that knowledge, they'll probably be going on more of these fishing expeditions than in the past. Best to have a plan on how to handle that question before you get pulled over.
Can any one tell me if in Pa you have to tell the LEO who just stopped you for a traffic infraction, that you are carrying in your car?
Must you provide a permit, that the cop may now know that you have, if unarmed?
18 Pa.C.S. § 6122. Proof of license and exception.
(a) General rule.--When carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle, an
individual licensed to carry a firearm shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement officer, produce
the license for inspection. Failure to produce such license either at the time of arrest or at the
preliminary hearing shall create a rebuttable presumption of nonlicensure.
(b) Exception.--An individual carrying a firearm on or about his person or in a vehicle and
claiming an exception under section 6106(b) (relating to firearms not to be carried without
a license) shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement officer, produce satisfactory evidence of
qualification for exception.
(Dec. 19, 1988, P.L.1275, No.158, eff. 180 days; Apr. 22, 1997, P.L.73, No.5, eff. 60 days)
1997 Amendment. Act 5 amended subsec. (a). 1988 Amendment. Act 158 added section 6122.
Source: http://www.legis.state.pa.us
Must you provide a permit, that the cop may now know that you have, if unarmed?
Confidentiality. All information provided by the potential … applicant, including, but not limited to, the … applicant’s name or identity, furnished by … any applicant for a license to carry a firearm as provided by section 6109 shall be confidential and not subject to public disclosure. In addition to any other sanction or penalty imposed by this chapter, any person, licensed dealer, State or local governmental agency or department that violates this subsection shall be liable in civil damages in the amount of $1,000 per occurrence or three times the actual damages incurred as a result of the violation, whichever is greater, as well as reasonable attorney fees.
I think that cops can get the info, "...and not subject to public disclosure...." Bureaucrats who do release the data to the public get in trouble.If unarmed, it's irrelevant.
Two issues come to mind:
1. How indeed does the officer know that you have an LTCF? Knowledge of such is supposed to be confidential, known only to you and the sheriff issuing it. I would file a written, hard-copy complaint, with info copy to your elected state representative, to both the officer's police department and to the sheriff issuing the license. See 18 Pa. C.S. § 6111(i).
2. The license must be presented upon lawful demand. If the traffic stop has nothing whatsoever with your possessing an LTCF, or firearm, is the request indeed a lawful command, knowing full well that ownership of your license is supposed to be confidential?
IF he "knows you have it" (a license), what purpose is served by requiring you to show it, when unarmed? It makes no sense to me.
PA is not a state in which a person is required to ID themselves for no particular reason, so I would say "no".
Here is the statute relating to providing the LTCF upon demand. Please note that it clearly says "When carry a firearm..."
I did find the question interesting, and admit I had to think about it a bit.
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"Lawful demand" and 5th amendment seem to conflict ... yes?
Perhaps I don't understand the question. How do you see it as a conflict?
Must you provide a permit, that the cop may now know that you have, if unarmed?
Because ANY answer could be used against you in a court of law. 5th amendment kicks in...
you avatar scares me ....
Because in previous threads (not specific to PA), the boundaries of lawful have not been established.
In a traffic stop of a licensed concealed carrier, whose status as licensed is protected, how can a cop make a lawful demand to inspect the license. Note that the statutory requirement is for inspection and not for unwarranted seizure, a violation of the Fourth Amendment.