Armed and ready for a confrontation... with my pastor

[Liberty-or-Death]

Wondering if AFcop will provide us with an update on his OP.

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[AFCop]

Update

I am still waiting for this to happen.

Matter of fact, since that very first conversation - not another word has been mentioned.

 

[ATM]

You might browse Carl Chinn's site: http://www.carlchinn.com

He was one of the team of responders involved in the active shooter incident at New Life Church in Colorado Springs on 12/09/2007 and has compiled various ministry security related data, statistics and resources going back to 1999 which may be of some use to you in your upcoming meeting.

 

[wimwag]

There have been several massacres in Wisconsin churches. Be sure to bring them up.

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[ChristCrusader]

an anecdotal comparison...

A few years ago my son went to a church retreat via his Christian school. The school enforced a no cell phone rule for the trip, which I told him to ignore because I was concerned about any emergency that might arise where I'd prefer him to have the ability to independently communicate. Staff found out and were disappointed, but that very same weekend there was a church retreat or service somewhere in the country where a shooter had gone in and done his nasty business.

I don't want to hear it any more. People need to be able to provide for their well being to the best of their ability wherever they are, and God bless any others that are unprepared but reap the benefit of being in the presence of someone who was.

A cell phone or a gun's presence poses no threat. There are appropriate rules and laws that govern their use beyond mere possession; but to not possess to avoid misuse is ignorant, and dangerously stupid.

 

[zoom6zoom]

let him sell his garment, and buy one.

And since he no longer has a garment, he needs to OC.... QED.

 

[Grapeshot]

And since he no longer has a garment, he needs to OC.... QED.

"Let him sell his garment/robe/coat" - doesn't mean he is w/o clothing.

 

[TFred]

A few years ago my son went to a church retreat via his Christian school. The school enforced a no cell phone rule for the trip, which I told him to ignore because I was concerned about any emergency that might arise where I'd prefer him to have the ability to independently communicate. Staff found out and were disappointed, but that very same weekend there was a church retreat or service somewhere in the country where a shooter had gone in and done his nasty business.

I don't want to hear it any more. People need to be able to provide for their well being to the best of their ability wherever they are, and God bless any others that are unprepared but reap the benefit of being in the presence of someone who was.

A cell phone or a gun's presence poses no threat. There are appropriate rules and laws that govern their use beyond mere possession; but to not possess to avoid misuse is ignorant, and dangerously stupid.

EXACTLY. Consider cigarettes or other tobacco products. How many places which prohibit smoking also ban the mere possession of these products while on their property? NONE!!!!! (ETA: Imagine the OUTRAGE of the smoking public if such policies were to appear!)

There is no reason for treating guns (or cell phones) any different than tobacco. Prohibit the use of, but no legitimate reason to ban possession.

TFred

 

[cirrusly]

The reference to places of worship is no guns w/o "good and sufficient reason." Self-defense has become a "good and sufficient reason."

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-283

http://cursesfoiledagain2.wordpress.com/2011/04/11/va-attorney-general-rules-on-guns-in-church/

+1 we have a solid Official AG opinion on that. I'm glad we secured the opinion before this current administration rolled in.

I don't carry to church. I'd like to, but it's just too easy to miss my Arlington exit off I-66 and end up in DC. So I never carry if I'm driving the Beltway or 66.


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[Grapeshot]

+1 we have a solid Official AG opinion on that. I'm glad we secured the opinion before this current administration rolled in.

I don't carry to church. I'd like to, but it's just too easy to miss my Arlington exit off I-66 and end up in DC. So I never carry if I'm driving the Beltway or 66.


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We feel comfortable with the present thinking, but AG opinions are just that - opinions - and are subject to change with the wind.

 

[va_tazdad]

We feel comfortable with the present thinking, but AG opinions are just that - opinions - and are subject to change with the wind.

Especially now, with the fool in office. $5 says he will follow McAuffl's lead and do everything he can to harass gun owners to keep Bloomers and his checkbook happy.

 

[cirrusly]

EXACTLY. Consider cigarettes or other tobacco products. How many places which prohibit smoking also ban the mere possession of these products while on their property? NONE!!!!! (ETA: Imagine the OUTRAGE of the smoking public if such policies were to appear!)

Good perspective, never considered the similarity of property owners regulating cell phones and cigarettes to firearms but it makes sense.

I would guess A reason there is no outrage over private establishments regulating possession of arms is because society has blindly accepted legislation such as: gun free zones, "high capacity" magazine bans, "assault weapon" bans, etc.

 

[cirrusly]

Good perspective, never considered the similarity of property owners regulating cell phones and cigarettes to firearms but it makes sense.

I would guess A reason there is no outrage over private establishments regulating possession of arms is because society has blindly accepted legislation such as: gun free zones, "high capacity" magazine bans, "assault weapon" bans, etc.

Which in turn sets the status quo for the regulations that private establishments feel free adopting.

A good example of legislation influencing property owners' mindsets was the Illinois Gov. Quinn proposed amendment to the new IL Concealed Carry Act. Quinn sought to ban firearms from all private establishments unless the establishment had a state-issued "Firearms are welcome" sign. Luckily the better half of the legislators in Springfield saw the stupidity of this.

All that is doing (besides the obvious
of disarming citizens) is construing a fundamental right into a special conditional privilege.

 

[OC for ME]

Which in turn sets the status quo for the regulations that private establishments feel free adopting.

A good example of legislation influencing property owners' mindsets was the Illinois Gov. Quinn proposed amendment to the new IL Concealed Carry Act. Quinn sought to ban firearms from all private establishments unless the establishment had a state-issued "Firearms are welcome" sign. Luckily the better half of the legislators in Springfield saw the stupidity of this.

All that is doing (besides the obvious
of disarming citizens) is construing a fundamental right into a special conditional privilege.

Every now and then a blind squirrel will find a nut.....one-off event. Do not expect this to become a trend, though, it is not impossible for lightning to strike twice in the same place.

 

[Grapeshot]

Every now and then a blind squirrel will find a nut.....one-off event. Do not expect this to become a trend, though, it is not impossible for lightning to strike twice in the same place.

Just to illustrate your point:

 

[Liberty-or-Death]

One might never think that the threat to the safety of a congregation might live in the home across the street from the church. But that was exactly the story I heard tonight from my minister.

It was about nine years ago at his brother-in-law's church that an ongoing disagreement with the neighbor that lived directly across from the church boiled over. The minister and the brother-in-law, who was an elder, were there when the neighbor paid them a visit in the parking lot after Sunday evening service. The discussion became heated so they told him to leave. He did just that, and immediately returned with a rifle and shot them both.

From there he went up the road to a house and killed everyone in the family there, and then returned to his home, taking pot-shots at others on the way. From the front window of his home, he watched as LEOs and EMS arrived at the church, and then laid down suppressive fire to prevent them from providing aid. They both died.

As we discussed this, we counted the CHPs in the congregation. We currently have three permit holders and two or three more currently in application. We'll have at least one of them armed at every church service and function. My minister summed it up as we've heard it said before, "It's like my daddy always told me: better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6."

μολών λαβέ

 

[Rusty Young Man]

One might never think that the threat to the safety of a congregation might live in the home across the street from the church. But that was exactly the story I heard tonight from my minister.

It was about nine years ago at his brother-in-law's church that an ongoing disagreement with the neighbor that lived directly across from the church boiled over.SNIP...

Could we get a link to an article? Or maybe we could get a location and year?
Not saying I don't believe you, but having another link to such an article could really help our cause in terms of houses of worship.

 

[Liberty-or-Death]

I'll research and reply.

μολών λαβέ

 

[user]

Seems to me that Pastor is speaking with forked tongue. Trying to be "nice" to some folks, not scaring others, and at the same time not alienating the serious types. In the non-canonical Gospel of Thomas, the boys were sitting around talking about what kind of rules they should follow, and they asked Jesus about it; he said, "Do not lie, and do not do that which you hate." A pastor who is disingenuous is not fit for duty. I'd find another church. In my case, I have never found an institutional ecclesiastical organization to meet the requirements, and keeping in mind the admonition in The Revelation, "come out of her, my people", I get together with a few other people once a week who are serious about what I call, "getting better". The "church" is not a building or an organization after all; "Where two or more are gathered together in my name, there I shall be also." We talk about books we're reading, issues that come up in Bible study, or whatever happens to be bothering someone that day. We get together over dinner at a restaurant (the original form of the Eucharistic meal - you are what you eat, after all). Seems to work, and no one ever asks me whether I'm carrying.

 

[OC for ME]

Back Story: Started attending a new church about 6 weeks ago. Got some sideways stares but nothing significant and people have been friendly.

Yesterday my wife finds out that for the first week we were the talk of the church. Even after the pastor said "We're an open carry church."

The church had its annual partners meeting this past Wednesday (their word for members) and today after the service 2 things happened...
1. He invited us to their new members meeting on Saturday and
2. Said he would be drafting a carry policy for the church and asked if I would provide some input.

He said he gets it but doesn't want just anyone to carry. He said I was fine because I was a MP and my wife was ok, well because she's with me but he doesn't want some random joe carrying not knowing what, if any training they've had. Like requiring a CHP, etc.

I'm sure he's getting some push from the members and wants to strike a balance and I think its great he's giving me the opportunity to provide input but I want to have ideas, facts and statistics to aid me in my presentation.

My position is the 2nd is just as important as the first and the no requirement to have any prerequisites to practice religion... But I'd like to show stats (or a lack there of) of OCers in general. I would like a no policy approach but at the very least be able to limit the policy to mirror state law.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

Follow the money.

Your attendance every Sunday is predicated on "how much" you bring to the table when viewing the big picture. Ask the Preacher "What's the hold up?"

A church with few faithful rarely last very long.

Though, he letting "sleeping dogs lay" (procrastinating?) is his way of "telling you" don't worry about it and carry, it ain't that big a deal.