Extra Legal Requirement for CHP in Accomack?

[Wolf_shadow]

He has not responded to my email... pointing out that there IS a "statutory provision that prohibits such a service". I'll give him another day or so, and email him back requesting an update.

I also wonder, if the CHP 'photo permits' are actually valid? As I pointed out to him in my previous email, its clear that they are not of a 'uniform style prescribed by the State Police'.... so are they even valid?

This is my reply. I also question the validity of the optional permit, and express that in the reply

Sam
I’m glad you understand this can not be mandatory, but please show where in the code you see the authority to create an optional CHP. In fact “§ 18.2-308.04. Processing of the application and issuance of a concealed handgun permit.” Section E states what may be on the permit and I see no allowance for a photo.

“E. The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall specify only the following information: name, address, date of birth, gender, height, weight, color of hair, color of eyes, and signature of the permittee; the signature of the judge issuing the permit, of the clerk of court who has been authorized to sign such permits by the issuing judge, or of the clerk of court who has been authorized to issue such permits pursuant to subsection D; the date of issuance; and the expiration date. The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall be no larger than two inches wide by three and one-fourth inches long and shall be of a uniform style prescribed by the Department of State Police.”

Paragraph E also states “The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall be no larger than two inches wide by three and one-fourth inches long and shall be of a uniform style prescribed by the Department of State Police.” Has this optional CHP been approved by the VSP? As it does not meet the State Code I feel this is not a valid CHP. As far as another form of ID, Where in the Code of Virginia is a local government agency authorized to create an government ID for the public?

While I understand the desire for a more durable CHP it must be done through the state legislature, not as a decision of a local government agency. Please show me what I am missing in the code. Also please tell me how you will address the issue of the people who have sat for the photo, and paid the extra fee, thinking it was mandatory and not optional.

 

[TFred]

Snippet from last post:

Section E states what may be on the permit and I see no allowance for a photo.

“E. The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall specify only the following information:

Really not trying to be nit-picky, but I think you hit it a little soft in your lead-in.

The first sentence of Paragraph E clearly allows for your lead-in to hit quite a bit harder:

"Section E clearly lists everything that may be on the permit, and 'photo' is not on that list."

JMH Thursday night re-writing.

TFred

 

[Old Virginia Joe]

I think a lot of government agencies do that.... they figure that everything is 'fair game', and if/when they get caught they will revise their policy at that time. Most of the time there is no penalty, once they 'comply'... :banghead:

This is exactly the kind of thing that follows the common person's view that, "well, I think it's a good idea, so it ought to be done that way, whether it is technically legal or not." They have no concept of "the law is the law," and that WE are just assinine technicalists for "nit-picking" for the law, and making an issue of every extra-legal procedure they want to make up as they go along. WE are the anarchists. They just don't get the "limited and specified powers" granted to government concept. They don't get the "we believe in the rule of law, not the rule of men" idea (from the Jaycee creed). THEY are the ideal American, and people like OCDO and Constitutionalists are the "problem." My own parents think like that, and all during my childhood, ridiculed people who stood up to government.

 

[Old Virginia Joe]

Concealed Handgun Permits

Applications for a Concealed Handgun permits are available from the Clerk's Office or by visiting the Virginia State Police website.

Applications must be received in person at the Clerk’s Office and the permit fee is $35.00. Your photo will be taken to be included on your new handgun permit.




Under VA Code they cannot require applicants to be received in person either!

MAYBE "it's a matta of inter-pa-tat-shun," eh, Nap?

 

[Old Virginia Joe]

Email response from Samuel H. Cooper, Jr, Accomack Clerk of Court

I have not responded yet. My thought is to reply back and point out the section in the Code of Virginia that prohibits additional information not specifically authorized.

I'm open to suggestions.....

-----------------------------------------
From : SHCooper@courts.state.va.us
To : blk97f150
Subject : Re: Accomack County Concealed Handgun Permit
Date : Mon, Jul 08, 2013 02:21 PM

I assume that you have an issue with having photos on handgun permits. This service is provided in response customers requests for a more durable card. The photo serves as an additional form of ID. My response to your question concerning statutory authorization for the photo would ask IF THERE IS ANY STATUTORY PROHIBITION.

Samuel H. Cooper, Jr.

Does this response not indicate a lack of understanding (by the clerk) of Virginia's Dillon Rule and its relevant application in county administration? IANAL, but it seems obvious to me . . . .

 

[peter nap]

Does this response not indicate a lack of understanding (by the clerk) of Virginia's Dillon Rule and its relevant application in county administration? IANAL, but it seems obvious to me . . . .

I think the Clerk understands it all too well Joe.

If you read the secret message in his email

No Statutory Prohibition

Really means

No Statutory Penalty.

 

[AJG]

???

Received this reply via email today;
If you have additional questions or concerns, I would ask that you call me or come into the office for further discussion.
[/SIZE][/FONT]

He sent you the above in his last reply, but you keep on writting?

 

[Wolf_shadow]

He sent you the above in his last reply, but you keep on writting?

It is rather hard when I work 6 days a week to call or go by his office as it is closed when I am available. And he knows it.:shocker:

 

[skidmark]

It is rather hard when I work 6 days a week to call or go by his office as it is closed when I am available. And he knows it.:shocker:

You could designate a proxy. Just sayin'.

stay safe.

 

[AJG]

understood

It is rather hard when I work 6 days a week to call or go by his office as it is closed when I am available. And he knows it.:shocker:

I totally understand. But its also my experience when someone replies like that, they will no longer respond when querried.

 

[The Wolfhound]

Could it be.....

Could it be that he want to get this matter off the record? Conversations are harder to publish and more open to interpretation. He likely does not want a record that he KNEW he was out of compliance once he is taken to task for it later. Once the error is public his liability window has been fully opened. Follow the money....... all to often the answer lies at the end of that simple trail.

 

[Thundar]

This photo ID CHP would be primary ID for FFL Transfer

1. My reading of the code of Virginia would make this "photo CHP" a primary document for a firearms transfer (purchase).

Code of Virginia Link: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.2C2

18.2 308.2

B. 1. No dealer shall sell, rent, trade or transfer from his inventory any such firearm to any other person who is a resident of Virginia until he has (i) obtained written consent and the other information on the consent form specified in subsection A, and provided the Department of State Police with the name, birth date, gender, race, citizenship, and social security and/or any other identification number and the number of firearms by category intended to be sold, rented, traded or transferred and (ii) requested criminal history record information by a telephone call to or other communication authorized by the State Police and is authorized by subdivision 2 to complete the sale or other such transfer. To establish personal identification and residence in Virginia for purposes of this section, a dealer must require any prospective purchaser to present one photo-identification form issued by a governmental agency of the Commonwealth or by the United States Department of Defense, and other documentation of residence.

2. I am still researching the requirements for a CHP to be an alternate to a NICS check in the federal system. This appears to be a more limited effect because a Virginia check (CHRI) would still be required unless the purchaser was an C&R licensee or a police office or if the firearm to be purchased was a C&R firearm.

As a licensed FFL I have asked the VSP to idicate in the VSP Firearms manual the manner of recording the Accomack CHP as the primary means of identification on the SP 65 (VSP form for CHRI Background check).

Break out the popcorn boys. This is going to get really interesting.

Live Free or Die,
Thundar

 

[2a4all]

So they "offer" a photo ID version of a CHP? Well, suppose that an individual who accepted their "offer" is required to present his/her CHP to a LEO on demand, as required by law, but that this LEO happens to be a State Trooper. S/he will know immediately that this CHP is counterfeit(?) as it doesn't conform to prescribed standards. What's to become of the poor sap who presented it? Will "The Clerk made me do it." be an adequate defense?

The statute (which has been referenced in this thread many times) describes the requisite format of the CHP, but doesn't hold the permittee liable for meeting this criteria. As the permittee is required to sign the permit, is s/he an accomplice to the counterfeiting? Can the issuing judge also be held responsible? S/he either signed it or authorized the clerk to do so.

Sounds a bit like a carnival booth "Step right up! Get your picture on a $100.00 bill."

 

[peter nap]

So they "offer" a photo ID version of a CHP? Well, suppose that an individual who accepted their "offer" is required to present his/her CHP to a LEO on demand, as required by law, but that this LEO happens to be a State Trooper. S/he will know immediately that this CHP is counterfeit(?) as it doesn't conform to prescribed standards. What's to become of the poor sap who presented it? Will "The Clerk made me do it." be an adequate defense?

The statute (which has been referenced in this thread many times) describes the requisite format of the CHP, but doesn't hold the permittee liable for meeting this criteria. As the permittee is required to sign the permit, is s/he an accomplice to the counterfeiting? Can the issuing judge also be held responsible? S/he either signed it or authorized the clerk to do so.

Sounds a bit like a carnival booth "Step right up! Get your picture on a $100.00 bill."

Kinda like the CHP badges. I hear the theme song from Russia With Love..:lol:

Cop: Sir, may I see your credentials
Chipper: Why yes Officer...I'm 007.

 

[Thundar]

So they "offer" a photo ID version of a CHP? Well, suppose that an individual who accepted their "offer" is required to present his/her CHP to a LEO on demand, as required by law, but that this LEO happens to be a State Trooper. S/he will know immediately that this CHP is counterfeit(?) as it doesn't conform to prescribed standards. What's to become of the poor sap who presented it? Will "The Clerk made me do it." be an adequate defense?

The statute (which has been referenced in this thread many times) describes the requisite format of the CHP, but doesn't hold the permittee liable for meeting this criteria. As the permittee is required to sign the permit, is s/he an accomplice to the counterfeiting? Can the issuing judge also be held responsible? S/he either signed it or authorized the clerk to do so.

Sounds a bit like a carnival booth "Step right up! Get your picture on a $100.00 bill."

Yes, this is going to get very interesting. The Photo CHP has the endorsement of a Commonwealth's Circuit Court Judge.

My guess is that this will go away very soon. The real issue is whether they can make somebody that already has one give it back, or can they invalidate (revoke) the picture CHP?

 

[Blk97F150]

This is exactly the kind of thing that follows the common person's view that, "well, I think it's a good idea, so it ought to be done that way, whether it is technically legal or not." They have no concept of "the law is the law," and that WE are just assinine technicalists for "nit-picking" for the law, and making an issue of every extra-legal procedure they want to make up as they go along. WE are the anarchists. They just don't get the "limited and specified powers" granted to government concept. They don't get the "we believe in the rule of law, not the rule of men" idea (from the Jaycee creed). THEY are the ideal American, and people like OCDO and Constitutionalists are the "problem." My own parents think like that, and all during my childhood, ridiculed people who stood up to government.

The issue that I have.... is that I can be arrested and thrown in jail for not adhering to Virginia's CHP law. Yet the Clerk of Court can ignore it and act as he sees fit? Uh... no. :uhoh:

 

[Blk97F150]

It is rather hard when I work 6 days a week to call or go by his office as it is closed when I am available. And he knows it.:shocker:

Not to mention... at least for me.... I want the correspondence to be documented via emails, etc. (although I suppose I could record it_)

 

[Blk97F150]

I just re-forwarded my email to the Clerk (the one that points out why he can't put photo's on the CHPs), with this note:


From : "blk97f150"
To : SHCooper@courts.state.va.us
Subject : Fw: Re: Accomack County Concealed Handgun Permit
Date : Fri, Jul 12, 2013 05:02 PM

Mr Cooper, may I please have a response to the issue that I brought to your attention below?

Thank you for your attention to this request.

Mike Xxxx

 

[Grapeshot]

Concealed Handgun Permits

Applications for a Concealed Handgun permits are available from the Clerk's Office or by visiting the Virginia State Police website.

Applications must be received in person at the Clerk’s Office and the permit fee is $35.00. Your photo will be taken to be included on your new handgun permit.




Under VA Code they cannot require applicants to be received in person either!

Cannot be required to [strike]be received[/strike] appear in person at the Clerk's Office..

 

[Blk97F150]

Cannot be required to [strike]be received[/strike] appear in person at the Clerk's Office..

I'm not so sure about that one. I think that might be...... 'a matta uh in-ter-pra-tat-tion...' :uhoh:

It appears that the code requires the Clerk to ISSUE the permit via US Mail, but the code doesn't say they must accept the application via USPS until you get to the section that specifically discusses renewals.

Here are the sections that I found relating to USPS. Maybe I'm missing something??

§ 18.2-308.02. Application for a concealed handgun permit; Virginia resident or domiciliary.

A. Any person 21 years of age or older may apply in writing to the clerk of the circuit court of the county or city in which he resides, or if he is a member of the United States armed forces, the county or city in which he is domiciled, for a five-year permit to carry a concealed handgun. There shall be no requirement regarding the length of time an applicant has been a resident or domiciliary of the county or city. The application shall be made under oath before a notary or other person qualified to take oaths and shall be made only on a form prescribed by the Department of State Police, in consultation with the Supreme Court, requiring only that information necessary to determine eligibility for the permit. No information or documentation other than that which is allowed on the application in accordance with this section may be requested or required by the clerk or the court.

§ 18.2-308.04. Processing of the application and issuance of a concealed handgun permit.

C. The court shall issue the permit via United States mail and notify the State Police of the issuance of the permit within 45 days of receipt of the completed application unless it is determined that the applicant is disqualified. Any order denying issuance of the permit shall be in accordance with § 18.2-308.08. If the applicant is later found by the court to be disqualified after a five-year permit has been issued, the permit shall be revoked.

§ 18.2-308.010. Renewal of concealed handgun permit.

A. 1. Persons who previously have held a concealed handgun permit shall be issued, upon application as provided in § 18.2-308.02, a new five-year permit unless it is found that the applicant is subject to any of the disqualifications set forth in § 18.2-308.09. Persons who previously have been issued a concealed handgun permit pursuant to this article shall not be required to appear in person to apply for a new five-year permit pursuant to this section, and the application for the new permit may be submitted via the United States mail. The circuit court that receives the application shall promptly notify an applicant if the application is incomplete or if the fee submitted for the permit pursuant to § 18.2-308.03 is incorrect.