Florida Carry legal victory makes way for constitutional challenge to Open Carry Ban

[California Right To Carry]

They don't have to, but we should strongly encourage them to allow it. States that allow carry in primary and secondary schools (California, Utah), college campuses (California, Utah, Oregon), or airport terminals (California, Arizona) do not have violence problems in those locations. Florida has a number of other rather ticky-tack prohibited places that could probably be gotten rid of without much backlash.

Funny you should mention that. I pointed out in my district court briefings, and will do so again on appeal, that a permit to carry a concealable weapon (CCW) isn't limited solely to the handguns listed on the permit. A county sheriff or local police chief who issues a CCW can limit where and when the handguns listed on the permit can be carried concealed but he cannot limit those places where the state exempts the carrying of firearms by statute for those who have a CCW.

For example, a sheriff or police chief can limit the carrying of a concealed weapon to the corner of 4th and Main street every other blue moon if he so chooses, but a person who has a California CCW can openly carry handguns and long guns in most state and local government buildings and the issuing authority has no say in the matter. The law is not clear on whether or not a CCW holder can openly carry handguns in schools and gun free school zones if the Sheriff or Police Chief explicitly prohibits it on the permit but a person can carry firearms which are not concealable (rifles & shotguns) loaded in schools and in gun free school zones because the morons who wrote the unloaded open carry bans explicitly exempted most state and local government buildings from the bans and only prohibited the carrying of UNLOADED long guns in schools and in gun free school zones unless a person has permission from the school.

In short, a CCW equals Open Carry in most state and local government buildings and loaded Open Carry of long guns in schools and in gun free school zones. Given the number of k-12 public and private schools in California, there are few populated places in the state where the Open Carry of a loaded long gun would be illegal should CCWs become "shall issue" in California.

I suspect that the two judges on the Peruta court weren't aware of this. The NRA certainly didn't volunteer the information and the incompetent legal counsel for San Diego Sheriff Gore was too busy arguing that the Second Amendment should not apply to San Diego County because of its proximity to Mexico to explain the ramifications of issuing CCWs to the court. :lol:

 

[California Right To Carry]

I think it's very likely Mr Friday knows all that you wrote about. It will be a year, at minimum, until FLSC rules against Mr Norman, then they can go from there. That's encouraging about Kagan, I'll believe it when I see it though. SCOTUS giving this country national open carry would be the most surprising political action that happened in my lifetime, to me.

If he had, he never would have said that Florida can require a permit to Open Carry. As for Justice Kagan, Google her. There is a video of her from this month or last where she is interviewed and explained her judicial philosophy in deciding cases.

 

[77zach]

I think it is very clear what a "sensitive place" is or should be: any place where there are armed security and metal detectors, like a prison, or public High School in certain places in Miami. Our universities are clearly not sensitive. I live next to the University of Florida. I can walk into any classroom there without anyone thinking twice about it. I suspect most other colleges are similar.

 

[randian]

I think it is very clear what a "sensitive place" is or should be: any place where there are armed security and metal detectors, like a prison

Even then it's not so clear cut. Pretty sure you can't do this in Florida, but in Washington only the secured area of the prison is off limits. If you're licensed you can carry in the parking lot, walk into the administration building, and surrender your weapon to visit an inmate, then recover your weapon on the way out, without being arrested. You can carry in police and sheriff's stations too, except in the holding area. Florida should be so civilized. I'm pretty sure Florida is the only state that specifically mentions seaports as prohibited places. That's a rather odd duck.

 

[77zach]

If he had, he never would have said that Florida can require a permit to Open Carry. As for Justice Kagan, Google her. There is a video of her from this month or last where she is interviewed and explained her judicial philosophy in deciding cases.

I don't remember him saying that. I remember him citing a Fl court case that said open carry could not be banned and could "possibly be licensed." The whole point is to get unlicensed OC.

 

[77zach]

Even then it's not so clear cut. Pretty sure you can't do this in Florida, but in Washington only the secured area of the prison is off limits. If you're licensed you can carry in the parking lot, walk into the administration building, and surrender your weapon to visit an inmate, then recover your weapon on the way out, without being arrested. You can carry in police and sheriff's stations too, except in the holding area. Florida should be so civilized. I'm pretty sure Florida is the only state that specifically mentions seaports as prohibited places. That's a rather odd duck.

Seaports? I'm not aware.

 

[randian]

Seaports? I'm not aware.

It's not per se prohibited, but unlike other places signs there carry force of law: it's a first-degree misdemeanor to "have in your possession a concealed weapon, or operate or have possession or control of a vehicle in or upon which a concealed weapon is placed or stored" at a seaport where it's posted "no carry". So far as I know all Florida seaports do so.

 

[77zach]

It's not per se prohibited, but unlike other places signs there carry force of law: it's a first-degree misdemeanor to "have in your possession a concealed weapon, or operate or have possession or control of a vehicle in or upon which a concealed weapon is placed or stored" at a seaport where it's posted "no carry". You can't (legally) store your weapon in your car to meet passengers coming off a cruise ship.

Where's the statute? I'm not doubting you, it just sounds so bizarre, and I doubt it has ever been enforced.

 

[randian]

Where's the statute? I'm not doubting you, it just sounds so bizarre, and I doubt it has ever been enforced.

FS 311.12 according to handgunlaw.us.

 

[notalawyer]

FS 311.12 according to handgunlaw.us.

You really need to read the actual statute....as everywhere else in Florida the sign carries not legal weight, in and of itself.
Here is the relevant portion of 311.12(3)(b)

"Any person in a restricted area who has in his or her possession a concealed weapon, or who operates or has possession or control of a vehicle in or upon which a concealed weapon is placed or stored,..."


John Q. Public is not gaining accidental/incidental access (on foot or in the the family station wagon) to a restricted area at a seaport.:uhoh:

 

[randian]

You really need to read the actual statute....as everywhere else in Florida the sign carries not legal weight, in and of itself.
Here is the relevant portion of 311.12(3)(b)

"Any person in a restricted area who has in his or her possession a concealed weapon, or who operates or has possession or control of a vehicle in or upon which a concealed weapon is placed or stored,..."

Restricted is whatever they say it is. Port Everglades deems the entirety of the premises to be restricted. No guns at all anywhere. Miami also has signs at the main entrances before you get to the parking areas.

 

[notalawyer]

Restricted is whatever they say it is. Port Everglades deems the entirety of the premises to be restricted. No guns at all anywhere. Miami also has signs at the main entrances before you get to the parking areas.

I'll say it again....
John Q. Public is not gaining un-escorted accidental/incidental access (on foot or in the the family station wagon) to a restricted area at a seaport.

 

[Grapeshot]

Restricted is whatever they say it is. Port Everglades deems the entirety of the premises to be restricted. No guns at all anywhere. Miami also has signs at the main entrances before you get to the parking areas.

Is the seaport private or municipal property?

If municipal (city or county) then the preemption statute would make this rule/ordinace void.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ing=&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.33.html

From what I can determine it is owned by Broward County.

Port Administration

Broward County Public Works Department Seaport Engineering & Construction Division
Division Director: John C. Foglesong, P.E.
Assistant Division Director: Israel L. Rozental, AIA

The seaport's extensive capital improvements program is developed and administered by this division, which has responsibility over facilities planning, architectural and engineering design, harbor maintenance/dredging, construction administration, surveys, engineering records, zoning, building code conformance, land development and a full range of environmental programs, including mitigation, wildlife protection, biological monitoring and environmental permits.
Tel: 954-468-0143; Fax: 954-468-3436
Environmental Programs: 954-468-0158

County Attorney's Office
Senior Port Attorney: Russell Morrison
Port Attorney: John E. Naclerio
Legal advice and counsel for the seaport, as well as its officers, in performance of official duties, is the responsibility of the Broward County Attorney's Office.
Tel: 954-468-3530; Fax: 954-523-2613
http://www.porteverglades.net/
​

 

[WalkingWolf]

Homeland security

I'll have to do some digging but I believe all ports fall under the DHS, that means no firearms unless a government agent.

Florida State Statute 311.12 (7) ̶ Seaport security standards; inspections; compliance; appeals ̶ makes it unlawful to:

Possess a weapon on a seaport
Keep a weapon in your vehicle on a seaport

A weapon is considered the following:

Guns
Concealed knives
Brass knuckles
Sling shot
Billie clubs
Tear gas
Chemical weapon or device
Any other items used for the purpose of causing death or injury to another

Persons exempt from this law:

Active-duty, certified federal or state law enforcement personnel
Persons so designated by the seaport director in writing

 

[notalawyer]

I'll have to do some digging but I believe all ports fall under the DHS, that means no firearms unless a government agent.

Florida State Statute 311.12 (7) ̶ Seaport security standards; inspections; compliance; appeals ̶ makes it unlawful to:

Possess a weapon on a seaport
Keep a weapon in your vehicle on a seaport

A weapon is considered the following:

Guns
Concealed knives
Brass knuckles
Sling shot
Billie clubs
Tear gas
Chemical weapon or device
Any other items used for the purpose of causing death or injury to another

Persons exempt from this law:

Active-duty, certified federal or state law enforcement personnel
Persons so designated by the seaport director in writing

You won't find it.

Plus, you really shouldn't believe everything you read on a Port's website. Especially since there is no subsection (7) in 311.12, nor is there a subsection (4)(c) as the Port Everglades website suggests. And they conveniently do not post a reference to this 'new' seaport law passed in 2006, nor advise folks of subsequent changes to the law.

 

[WalkingWolf]

You won't find it.

I already did, it is very clear, anybody without official status cannot carry legally on a seaport in Florida.

 

[notalawyer]

I already did, it is very clear, anybody without official status cannot carry legally on a seaport in Florida.

Cite?

 

[WalkingWolf]

Cite?

I already did, can't you read?

 

[notalawyer]

I already did, can't you read?

I can, but it appears that you cannot.

 

[77zach]

I can, but it appears that you cannot.

Lawyer, getting back on topic, what do you think of the Norman opinion? This summary is interesing:

"While the right to carry outside the home has been established by the highest court of the land, no decision interpreting the Second Amendment can be cited for the proposition that a state must allow for one form of carry over another. Because the Legislature has the right to enact laws regarding the manner in which arms can be borne, it is likewise permitted to forbid the carrying of arms in a particular place or manner which, in its collective judgment, is likely to lead to breaches of the peace, see Carlton v. State, 58 So. 486, 488-89 (Fla. 1912), provided a reasonable alternative manner of carry is provided."

"...no decision interpreting the Second Amendment can be cited for the proposition that a state must allow for one form of carry over another". Isn't this false on its face? The supreme court cited SC cases from Georgia, Alabama, and Louisiana that said OC could not be banned. We also have a recent federal court case from Colorado that says OC is a right.