TheJeepster
Regular Member
And next time??
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Handcuffed at Manito Park 7/24/10
- Thread starter bennie1986
- Start date
And next time??
Lammo
Regular Member
You might call Jeff Finer. He's at the Center for Justice, which is an extremely liberal outfit, but he is a very experienced criminal defense and civil rights attorney and not in favor of law enforcement violating anyone's rights. He is not likely to be able to take it on himself but I would talk to him about the incident and ask him for a recommendation. If you can't get through to him PM me and I will call him (I have a private number for him).
Lammo
Regular Member
Somewhere in here are a variety of LEO training bulletins including one for the Spokane Police Department. It was mostly wrong about the legal basis for OC (referring to Heller but not to the preemption statute) but IIRC it did indicate that OC was lawful in the parks. Who remembers where the LEO bulletins are and can we have them made into a sticky?
Lammo
Regular Member
If you want to have the media there
Someone call Jeff Humphrey at KXLY TV and tell him about the 08-04 picnic. I would do it but I can't. If I see him around the courthouse between now and then I will mention it to him, OTR. If you don't think we should alert the media let me know.
Someone call Jeff Humphrey at KXLY TV and tell him about the 08-04 picnic. I would do it but I can't. If I see him around the courthouse between now and then I will mention it to him, OTR. If you don't think we should alert the media let me know.
bennie1986
Regular Member
I will probably do the same thing because I’m not going to give them any reason to say I was out of line. I have no problem with an officer talking to me but I’m not going to physically resist because that doesn’t look good for me or anyone else that is trying to further our cause. I was adamant the whole time that he was out of line. When carrying I believe you should be as courteous as possible and that shouldn’t change when confronted by an LEO who isn’t aware he is in the wrong.
TheJeepster
Regular Member
I'm hoping this incident makes you realize the the police are NOT your friend. Remember, "anything you say can, and will, be used against you. (Plus stuff they make up).
Nothing wrong with being courteous. I am all the time. But I will not go out of my way to do their job for them. All it takes it to get run through the system ONE time to realize it is not something to do repeatedly.
Protect your rights and USE THEM! Good luck to everyone going to the OC outing on the 4th.
Make sure to let us know how it goes.
Nothing wrong with being courteous. I am all the time. But I will not go out of my way to do their job for them. All it takes it to get run through the system ONE time to realize it is not something to do repeatedly.
Protect your rights and USE THEM! Good luck to everyone going to the OC outing on the 4th.
Make sure to let us know how it goes.
BigDave
Opt-Out Members
NorthWest Citizens Defense League http://forum.nwcdl.org seems to be down right now, so I have upload the Spokane Police Department Memo.
bennie1986
Regular Member
This isn’t the first issue I have had with this department or at this location as far as how I carry my weapon. What this makes me realize is that I now have a real opportunity to make a difference in the way the LEO’s in my community treat people that OC. I will lose this opportunity if I take the approach that cops are my enemy and be defiant when contacted.
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Lammo
Regular Member
Thanks BigDave!
Thanks BigDave. I was wrong about the bulletin - - SPD does have it bassackwards when it comes to parks. AFAICR, the only one I have seen that I know gets it right is from Liberty Lake PD.
Thanks BigDave. I was wrong about the bulletin - - SPD does have it bassackwards when it comes to parks. AFAICR, the only one I have seen that I know gets it right is from Liberty Lake PD.
BigDave
Opt-Out Members
Spokane City Ordinance
Here is the link that was started sometime ago by Gene keeping track of Washington State local codes being brought into compliance.
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...ith-state-law&highlight=city+county+ordinance
Spokane
Section 10.10.040 Public Park
No person may in any park:
1.possess any dangerous weapon as defined in chapter 9.41 RCW, unless authorized by park department rule, regulation or special permission of the park board, park department or police department; or
2. shoot, fire or explode any firearm, fireworks, explosive, bow and arrow, slingshot or other weapon, toy or real, which discharges a pellet or other object with harmful force.
Doing a search in RCW 9.41 for Dangerous Weapons as to what is considered a Dangerous Weapon I was not able to find something describing a firearm but, well here you read it.No person may in any park:
1.possess any dangerous weapon as defined in chapter 9.41 RCW, unless authorized by park department rule, regulation or special permission of the park board, park department or police department; or
2. shoot, fire or explode any firearm, fireworks, explosive, bow and arrow, slingshot or other weapon, toy or real, which discharges a pellet or other object with harmful force.
RCW 9.41.250
Dangerous weapons — Penalty — Exemption for law enforcement officers.
(1) Every person who:
(a) Manufactures, sells, or disposes of or possesses any instrument or weapon of the kind usually known as slung shot, sand club, or metal knuckles, or spring blade knife, or any knife the blade of which is automatically released by a spring mechanism or other mechanical device, or any knife having a blade which opens, or falls, or is ejected into position by the force of gravity, or by an outward, downward, or centrifugal thrust or movement;
As to the training bulletinDangerous weapons — Penalty — Exemption for law enforcement officers.
(1) Every person who:
(a) Manufactures, sells, or disposes of or possesses any instrument or weapon of the kind usually known as slung shot, sand club, or metal knuckles, or spring blade knife, or any knife the blade of which is automatically released by a spring mechanism or other mechanical device, or any knife having a blade which opens, or falls, or is ejected into position by the force of gravity, or by an outward, downward, or centrifugal thrust or movement;
NOTE: Citizens have recently contacted the City to argue that they can carry guns in city parks, because Washington Law does not automatically ban guns carried under “circumstances that warrant concern for the safety of others”. Regardless of the carrier’s lack of intent to intimidate others, the carrier can be ordered to immediately remove the gun from the park and/or face criminal charges, if the circumstances warrant. R.C.W.9.41.270 and SMC 10.11.048A.
SMC 10.11.048 is a duplicate of RCW 9.41.270 and is legal from what I can see, though it is back to the old concept of what warrants alarm.
Here is the link that was started sometime ago by Gene keeping track of Washington State local codes being brought into compliance.
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...ith-state-law&highlight=city+county+ordinance
Spokane
- Spokane 10.10.040 Parks; Addressed with City Attorney on 12/22/2008, not changed yet
- Spokane 10.10.050 City public assembly building; Addressed with City Attorney on 12/22/2008, not changed yet
- Spokane 2.04.030 Emergency Powers; Code was updated in 2008 with input from fetch]but still needs work
- Spokane Valley 6.05.090 Parks
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Jeff Hayes
Regular Member
Big Dave
You are correct dangerous weapons do not include firearms, the problem is that you I and a lot of others understand but of Spokane LEOs do not. Spokane is well with in the law to prohibit discharging firearms the problem is with Spokane Municiple Code 10.10.040 #7 "No weapon of any kind is allowed in the park."
You are correct dangerous weapons do not include firearms, the problem is that you I and a lot of others understand but of Spokane LEOs do not. Spokane is well with in the law to prohibit discharging firearms the problem is with Spokane Municiple Code 10.10.040 #7 "No weapon of any kind is allowed in the park."
BigDave
Opt-Out Members
Are you reading a different version then I am?
6. No person may in any park:
1.possess any dangerous weapon as defined in chapter 9.41 RCW, unless authorized by park department rule, regulation or special permission of the park board, park department or police department
Then we look to RCW 9.41 Firearms and dangerous weapons for what the definition of a dangerous weapon and when we do there is nothing defining a firearm.1.possess any dangerous weapon as defined in chapter 9.41 RCW, unless authorized by park department rule, regulation or special permission of the park board, park department or police department
Section 10.10.040 Public Park
1. No person may violate such rules and regulations as may from time to time be promulgated by the park board or the director of parks and recreation pursuant to and in supplementation of the City Charter and this code.
2. Except when done in places designated and in the manner prescribed by rule, regulation or special permission of the park board or department, no person may:
1. solicit donations or collections, such as for entertainment by strolling musicians or other performers, or peddle or hawk any goods or services;
2. operate any public address or loudspeaker system, or operate any radio or other electronic audio device in such a manner that the device makes extreme noise which offends the common sensibilities and senses of others;
3.ride, drive or park any vehicle or animal except along designated drives, ways, boulevards or paths; or
4. move at a speed in excess of fifteen miles per hour unless otherwise posted; or
5. otherwise operate or drive any vehicle or mobile device, including bicycles, skateboards and roller skates, in a manner which is likely to endanger persons and/or property; or
6. ride or drive a vehicle at a speed in excess of five miles per hour in Riverfront Park; or
7. ride or drive any motorized vehicle on the grass; or
8. park outside designated parking areas;
9. play or practice any game or activity, such as golf, hacky-sack or baseball, involving running or the throwing or hitting of a ball or other missile when and where such activity is or is likely to be dangerous to others or upon drives, ways, boulevards or paths.
3. No person may allow any animal to run at large in any park or enter any pond, pool, fountain or stream thereof.
4. No person may possess or consume in any park any liquor, except as specifically authorized by law.
5. No person may operate any type of watercraft in or upon water within or bordering any park.
6. No person may in any park:
1.possess any dangerous weapon as defined in chapter 9.41 RCW, unless authorized by park department rule, regulation or special permission of the park board, park department or police department; or
2. shoot, fire or explode any firearm, fireworks, explosive, bow and arrow, slingshot or other weapon, toy or real, which discharges a pellet or other object with harmful force.
7. No person may camp in any park except at places set aside for such purposes by the park board and designated by signs, or by special permission of the department.
8. Where the park board has provided for the collection of fees, rents or charges for the use of park facilities, including municipal golf courses, no person may enter upon or use such park facilities without paying such required fees, rents or charges.
9. All City parks shall be closed from eleven p.m. to four a.m., Pacific Daylight Time, or ten p.m. to five a.m., Pacific Standard Time, except Riverfront Park, which shall close at midnight throughout the year.
1. No person may be in a City park during the hours of closure without the express permission of the park board or the director of parks and recreation.
10. No person may build a fire except in designated fireplaces and park-supplied barbecue pits.
11. No person may disturb or attack any wildlife in any park.
12. No person may dig holes in any park or cut or trim park trees or landscaping.
13. Swimming pools, wading pools, softball diamonds and basketball courts may be used only during hours designated by the park board.
2. Except when done in places designated and in the manner prescribed by rule, regulation or special permission of the park board or department, no person may:
1. solicit donations or collections, such as for entertainment by strolling musicians or other performers, or peddle or hawk any goods or services;
2. operate any public address or loudspeaker system, or operate any radio or other electronic audio device in such a manner that the device makes extreme noise which offends the common sensibilities and senses of others;
3.ride, drive or park any vehicle or animal except along designated drives, ways, boulevards or paths; or
4. move at a speed in excess of fifteen miles per hour unless otherwise posted; or
5. otherwise operate or drive any vehicle or mobile device, including bicycles, skateboards and roller skates, in a manner which is likely to endanger persons and/or property; or
6. ride or drive a vehicle at a speed in excess of five miles per hour in Riverfront Park; or
7. ride or drive any motorized vehicle on the grass; or
8. park outside designated parking areas;
9. play or practice any game or activity, such as golf, hacky-sack or baseball, involving running or the throwing or hitting of a ball or other missile when and where such activity is or is likely to be dangerous to others or upon drives, ways, boulevards or paths.
3. No person may allow any animal to run at large in any park or enter any pond, pool, fountain or stream thereof.
4. No person may possess or consume in any park any liquor, except as specifically authorized by law.
5. No person may operate any type of watercraft in or upon water within or bordering any park.
6. No person may in any park:
1.possess any dangerous weapon as defined in chapter 9.41 RCW, unless authorized by park department rule, regulation or special permission of the park board, park department or police department; or
2. shoot, fire or explode any firearm, fireworks, explosive, bow and arrow, slingshot or other weapon, toy or real, which discharges a pellet or other object with harmful force.
7. No person may camp in any park except at places set aside for such purposes by the park board and designated by signs, or by special permission of the department.
8. Where the park board has provided for the collection of fees, rents or charges for the use of park facilities, including municipal golf courses, no person may enter upon or use such park facilities without paying such required fees, rents or charges.
9. All City parks shall be closed from eleven p.m. to four a.m., Pacific Daylight Time, or ten p.m. to five a.m., Pacific Standard Time, except Riverfront Park, which shall close at midnight throughout the year.
1. No person may be in a City park during the hours of closure without the express permission of the park board or the director of parks and recreation.
10. No person may build a fire except in designated fireplaces and park-supplied barbecue pits.
11. No person may disturb or attack any wildlife in any park.
12. No person may dig holes in any park or cut or trim park trees or landscaping.
13. Swimming pools, wading pools, softball diamonds and basketball courts may be used only during hours designated by the park board.
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Jeff Hayes
Regular Member
Big Dave
I am looking at the permit they gave me for the shelter rental. It cites SMC 10.10.040 and lists the rules there are 21 of them. The document I am looking at is different than the code but it leads you to believe it is the code. It has every thing that the actual code has except for the reference to Riverfront Park speed limit and they added a few extra things tossed like no vending without a permit. It is so similar to the code that I did not think to compare this to the actual code, good catch.
I am looking at the permit they gave me for the shelter rental. It cites SMC 10.10.040 and lists the rules there are 21 of them. The document I am looking at is different than the code but it leads you to believe it is the code. It has every thing that the actual code has except for the reference to Riverfront Park speed limit and they added a few extra things tossed like no vending without a permit. It is so similar to the code that I did not think to compare this to the actual code, good catch.
Lammo
Regular Member
OK gang, here's the deal.
The answer is found in looking at sub-section A of SMC 10.10.040, found here: http://www.spokanecity.org/services/documents/smc/?Section=10.10.040
Title 10 Regulation of Activities
Division I: Penal Code
Chapter 10.10 Offenses Against Peace and Order
Section 10.10.040 Public Park
A. No person may violate such rules and regulations as may from time to time be promulgated by the park board or the director of parks and recreation pursuant to and in supplementation of the City Charter and this code.
The 21 rules listed on the permit have been "promulgated by the park board or the director of parks and recreation" and can be found here:
http://spokaneparks.org/Parks/page/96/
Now, this is just as preempted by RCW 9.41.290 and .300 as if the city council had done it. They cannot make an end run around preemption by using the Park Board's rule making authority. Any way, that's where SPD is getting it from. Looking at the roster of the Park Board, I know about half of them but I can't say whether we would have any better luck getting the board to repeal the rule than we would have getting an override from the current city council.
PS: Toward the bottom of the page with the park rules, under "Brochure Downloads", click on the "Recreation Activity Guide". That's my daughters on the cover.
The answer is found in looking at sub-section A of SMC 10.10.040, found here: http://www.spokanecity.org/services/documents/smc/?Section=10.10.040
Title 10 Regulation of Activities
Division I: Penal Code
Chapter 10.10 Offenses Against Peace and Order
Section 10.10.040 Public Park
A. No person may violate such rules and regulations as may from time to time be promulgated by the park board or the director of parks and recreation pursuant to and in supplementation of the City Charter and this code.
The 21 rules listed on the permit have been "promulgated by the park board or the director of parks and recreation" and can be found here:
http://spokaneparks.org/Parks/page/96/
Now, this is just as preempted by RCW 9.41.290 and .300 as if the city council had done it. They cannot make an end run around preemption by using the Park Board's rule making authority. Any way, that's where SPD is getting it from. Looking at the roster of the Park Board, I know about half of them but I can't say whether we would have any better luck getting the board to repeal the rule than we would have getting an override from the current city council.
PS: Toward the bottom of the page with the park rules, under "Brochure Downloads", click on the "Recreation Activity Guide". That's my daughters on the cover.
Jeff Hayes
Regular Member
Lammo you are awesome, thank you for the explanation. Keep it coming please its great education for all of us laymen. If you ever need any help in the structural steel field let me know.
Cute girls BTW.
Cute girls BTW.
daddy4count
Regular Member
Sadly this is one of those cases where it may require a lawsuit against the city and parks department to force them to change their stance. Obviously they think they are smarter than the state...
If direct media spotlight does not help, a lawyer may be necessary
bennie1986
Regular Member
That is what I’m working on. I am trying to find an attorney willing to take on the case. I spoke with one yesterday after work and he didn’t seem real positive about the situation so I probably won’t use him. BigDave suggested an attorney and I'm going to follow up on that asap.
BigDave
Opt-Out Members
bennie most do not realize that securing an Attorney in actions as this it is well not real beneficial for them to take it on a contingency fee base and in most cased require a up front retainer, I am not sure about this issue with name of the Attorney I sent you but you should still call and chat with him to find out how he feels about what ever method you are looking to do.
This usually stops a lot of law suits being filed do to the upfront cost.
This usually stops a lot of law suits being filed do to the upfront cost.
bennie1986
Regular Member
What I meant was find one that sounds positive about representing me. The lawyer I called yesterday just seemed a bit hesitant to get involved and kind of skeptical of the situation. I haven’t even bothered thinking about the cost of the attorney yet, Ill cross that bridge when I get there, I know representation won’t be free.
bennie1986
Regular Member
Update:
Got an appoitment 8/14 to see the police ombudsman to see what he has to say on the situation. I have also requested the police records for any information regarding Manito park on 7/24.
Got an appoitment 8/14 to see the police ombudsman to see what he has to say on the situation. I have also requested the police records for any information regarding Manito park on 7/24.