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Interesting twist on OC'ers baiting police and recording the event

eye95

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Jan 6, 2010
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Fairborn, Ohio, USA
I think it is a flimsy theory used to get around a reasonable rule against entrapment. I really don't know about the wisdom of police getting people to break the law, even if the people would have broken the law in the very near future at a very near location. They wouldn't have broken the law then and there had the bait not been set.

I would support legislation that would stop the practice since the courts won't.

I don't like it when OCers behave similarly.
 

MyWifeSaidYes

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Dec 29, 2009
Messages
1,028
Location
Logan, OH
...I think personally I would comply politely with the officer unless his attitude was hostile to start with...

If he politely asked you to bend over and grab your ankles, you would comply? The issue is not attitude, but the legality of the request. When an OC'er refuses, politely, to produce ID, it seems to upset LEO's. Once upset, LEO's tend to do things they shouldn't. When in front of a judge, they tend to forget that they have done anything wrong. Havingaudio and/or video of the stop helps let the judge know what ACTUALLY happened.

Michael Porschien's video of his open carry stop in Youngstown, OH did just that.

WalMart store video corrected the memory of police AND store employees in an open carry stop in Waverly, OH.

These were not "baiting" incidents. They were self-defense incidents. We carry guns to protect ourselves from the bad guys and, shamefully, we carry recorders to protect ourselves from the good guys.
 

minarchist

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Feb 10, 2013
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473
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Fredericksburg, VA
I don't know about you folks but when I see some of the videos on YouTube where it is pretty obvious that an OC'er has deliberately tried to bait police for the purpose of recording and posting the incident, it kinda rubs me the wrong way and makes me uncomfortable. An incidental, unexpected encounter where the OC'er was going about his business in a normal fashion when he is stopped is one thing, but a deliberate attempt to bait police simply to cause a heated exchange for posting is not something I like to see happen. It has been my take that this does not work in our favor.

With that said, I ran across something posted by an individual over a week ago that really gave me pause and got me to thinking. I don't have the answer to this and have not formed any sort of opinion about it either so I thought I would just throw it out there for kicks. I also don't think this violates the rules of these forums but if it does, I expect this thread to be closed or removed.

What this individual said when this topic was raised was this. "So how do you feel about police setting bait cars?"

He makes an interesting point. Police do deliberately bait people in an attempt to weed out criminal activity so why should'nt citizens bait police to weed out the bad apples? This was his position and frankly from the surface, it make sense. We should monitor the actions of our public servants more than we do and this IS one way to do it.

But as I said, I don't have the answer and I am pretty neutral on this one. What say you people?

*YAWN* Police engage in plenty of childish behavior.
 

Doughnutman

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Mar 15, 2013
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9
Location
Virginia
We have a duty, as citizens, to "Test" our elected and appointed government officals. This is to make sure they are abiding by the restrictions we have put on them to develope a Civil Society.

Now how we go about that is up to each person. Some will be bold in your face, others will be more suttle about it.

Unfortunely, today, we have to "ambush" them to get their true response. I mean, in most cases if you know your being watched, you mind your P's and Q's. but your real colors come out when you think you are not being observed.

So I guess the question is ... How do we get to see their real colors, unless we hide ours.


I wonder why the general public is always trying to catch us doing something wrong. This gives me a little insight....

Yeah, there are some bad apples disguised in blue, and that very fact makes me cringe... but that doesn't mean people should pull out your camera when a subject resists arrest in a public place (for a crime they have no clue about) and then post it to a social media site complaining that I "Didn't have to twist his arm so hard or punch him in the face so hard" to affect the arrest when I know that if I let him go, he could go and kill another store clerk and I'm trying to save a life. Some people just have no idea.


I'm not trying to be defensive or start an argument, I just wish people would put more emphasis upon observance of the law rather than it's enforcement and it sickens me to think that I would give my life in a split second and without question just to save one person, a person that I will never even know, (Yes, even you), but they hate me so much just for the uniform I have on...
 

MyWifeSaidYes

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Dec 29, 2009
Messages
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Logan, OH
I wonder why the general public is always trying to catch us doing something wrong. This gives me a little insight....

Yeah, there are some bad apples disguised in blue, and that very fact makes me cringe... but that doesn't mean people should pull out your camera when a subject resists arrest in a public place (for a crime they have no clue about) and then post it to a social media site complaining that I "Didn't have to twist his arm so hard or punch him in the face so hard" to affect the arrest when I know that if I let him go, he could go and kill another store clerk and I'm trying to save a life. Some people just have no idea.


I'm not trying to be defensive or start an argument, I just wish people would put more emphasis upon observance of the law rather than it's enforcement and it sickens me to think that I would give my life in a split second and without question just to save one person, a person that I will never even know, (Yes, even you), but they hate me so much just for the uniform I have on...


D-Man, I don't know how much of this thread or other threads you may have read, but we are NOT talking about you sending a perp to the emergency room requiring a PR-24-ectomy IF they deserved it.

What we are talking about is the LEGAL act of open carry, in states (like Ohio) where open carry is allowed, and having a LEO stop us for NO OTHER REASON than open carry.

We just wish that ALL COPS would put more emphasis on OBSERVANCE OF THE LAW rather than acting upon their own bias against a legal activity.

Welcome to the forum. I really mean that and truly hope you can share some insights from the other side of the badge.
 

eye95

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Fairborn, Ohio, USA
To be honest, there are folks who seek only to find LEOs in flagrante thuggo. They are acting as despicably as a LEO who sees folks only as opportunities to bust someone.

Both are a tiny minority. Both are wildly visible. Both give everyone else a bad name. Both are the reason we should look carefully at everyone else as an individual worthy of being judged on his own merits.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>
 

Citizen

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Messages
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Fairfax Co., VA
To be honest, there are folks who seek only to find LEOs in flagrante thuggo. They are acting as despicably as a LEO who sees folks only as opportunities to bust someone.

Both are a tiny minority. Both are wildly visible. Both give everyone else a bad name. Both are the reason we should look carefully at everyone else as an individual worthy of being judged on his own merits.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>

Nice turn of phrase. :)
 

Citizen

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SNIP The reason why I don't care if police officers are 'baited' is that had they have Every opportunity to ignore legal, non-threatening behavior and instead they decide they just 'gotta do Something, that guy's carryin' a gunnnn!!!' If they choose to behave responsibly, then they wouldn't wind up on camera, nor if front of a judge as the defendant in a civil case.

I'll take it one step further.

I will always support so-called cop baiters. There is absolutely nothing wrong with citizens checking on government employees to ensure they behave correctly. Vast amounts of human experience show that government employees do not. The list is endless.

True, a cop-baiter can behave with more courtesty and civility. But, there is no requirement in the Bill of Rights that rights are exercised politely. I know--I've checked. Nor, is there any prohibition against citizens checking how government is going to react by setting up a scenario where the citizen has some control of the evidence. Way too many examples of cops lying. There is nothing wrong with a citizen setting up the situation where he is not surpised or caught off guard and has recording equipment to prove his accusation.

And, a question. What on earth are the good cops doing allowing bad cops to roam around and fail bait tests? The good cops know the bad cops are there--the Blue Wall of Silence proves that. In fact, it just occurred to me that the Blue Wall of Silence is the reason citizens are doing the baiting. If the good cops would routinely correct or eject the bad cops, there would be little reason for cop baiters to even bother. Maybe a few would try it for a payday, but they'd get bored and give up pretty quick when the cops didn't do anything wrong.

Given that many citizens just sit around in apathy or complain about government, I kinda gotta say I appreciate the cop-baiters. At least they are doing something about it. Maybe they are unsophisticated in their approach--just crude and common. But, at least they're doing something about it.
 
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tazxrulz

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Jan 27, 2011
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Saco, ME
haha once I read this I thought of that annoying "markguardian" character. Anyhow police should not be stopping and harassing law abiding citizens period.
 

FTG-05

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Feb 28, 2011
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441
Location
TN
I'll take it one step further.

I will always support so-called cop baiters. There is absolutely nothing wrong with citizens checking on government employees to ensure they behave correctly. Vast amounts of human experience show that government employees do not. The list is endless.

True, a cop-baiter can behave with more courtesty and civility. But, there is no requirement in the Bill of Rights that rights are exercised politely. I know--I've checked. Nor, is there any prohibition against citizens checking how government is going to react by setting up a scenario where the citizen has some control of the evidence. Way too many examples of cops lying. There is nothing wrong with a citizen setting up the situation where he is not surpised or caught off guard and has recording equipment to prove his accusation.

And, a question. What on earth are the good cops doing allowing bad cops to roam around and fail bait tests? The good cops know the bad cops are there--the Blue Wall of Silence proves that. In fact, it just occurred to me that the Blue Wall of Silence is the reason citizens are doing the baiting. If the good cops would routinely correct or eject the bad cops, there would be little reason for cop baiters to even bother. Maybe a few would try it for a payday, but they'd get bored and give up pretty quick when the cops didn't do anything wrong.

Given that many citizens just sit around in apathy or complain about government, I kinda gotta say I appreciate the cop-baiters. At least they are doing something about it. Maybe they are unsophisticated in their approach--just crude and common. But, at least they're doing something about it.

I've read this *diatribe* 5 or maybe 8 times and I come to same exact conclusion each and every time:

I can't find a dang thing wrong with it.


[doesn't this place have a beer animation? If so, please insert it here, thanks]
 
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charliej47

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Feb 8, 2009
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Middletown, Ohio, USA
Education

Note: I have not checked every state's minimum requirements for admission as an officer, but .....
Every state I've checked so far, shows that only a General Educational Development certificate is required for admission into the academy.

To say that you have to have a certain level of education to try to become a LEO is to say that you have to be able to read and write. I don't think you need a college degree to be one.

You have to be able to think and reason and a lot of LEOs can't do these two tasks very well.
 

Superlite27

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Jul 12, 2007
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God's Country, Missouri
To say that you have to have a certain level of education to try to become a LEO is to say that you have to be able to read and write. I don't think you need a college degree to be one.

You have to be able to think and reason and a lot of LEOs can't do these two tasks very well.

We're not really into cop bashing here. While it may appear that many have a problem with authority, and others enjoy ranting about the awfulness of police, astuteness will reveal that most have specific gripes, or incidents pertaining to specific officers, departments, or the actions thereof.

Generalizations are usually inaccurate. As with all things firearm related, firing in general directions and innaccuracy are borderline intolerable in some communities as they are a reflection of bad manners, inexperience, or the result of poor training.

Let's keep everything we fire off pointed at a specific target and leave the lobbing to amateurs.
 

Citizen

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We're not really into cop bashing here. While it may appear that many have a problem with authority, and others enjoy ranting about the awfulness of police, astuteness will reveal that most have specific gripes, or incidents pertaining to specific officers, departments, or the actions thereof.

Generalizations are usually inaccurate. As with all things firearm related, firing in general directions and innaccuracy are borderline intolerable in some communities as they are a reflection of bad manners, inexperience, or the result of poor training.

Let's keep everything we fire off pointed at a specific target and leave the lobbing to amateurs.

Uh, oh. I foresee noisy protests from artillerists, mortarmen, and grenadiers. :)
 

Superlite27

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Uh, oh. I foresee noisy protests from artillerists, mortarmen, and grenadiers. :)

Those you mention provide quite the paradox only serving to undermine my metaphor. (Which I have yet to determine if that was your subtle intent.)

I use "lobbing" to illustrate inaccuracy......

...and Citizen the contrarian has to provide examples of people who lob with precision. :)
 

countryclubjoe

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nj
If a cop or a police department violates a citizens constitutional rights then that cop and that police department should not only be bashed said cop and said police department should be sued and held accountable under the law. Being bashed should be the least of there problems.

CCJ
 

eye95

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If a cop or a police department violates a citizens constitutional rights then that cop and that police department should not only be bashed said cop and said police department should be sued and held accountable under the law. Being bashed should be the least of there problems.

CCJ

All true. But three caveats:

1. LEOs in general should not be bashed. There are good ones and bad ones. I don't know, but I believe that the good outnumber the bad overwhelmingly. We just encounter almost exclusively the bad, making the less discerning think that all are bad. Many cops become jaded in the same way. They deal almost exclusively with thugs and start thinking of everyone as thugs. Don't be the hammer that sees everything as a nail.

2. The rules here do not disallow bashing individual officers and individual departments for specific bad acts. The rules prohibit generalizing to all officers.

3. There is a moral difference between observing a cop violate one's rights (including being the one so victimized) and baiting a cop into violating one's own rights just to be able to make that observation. I don't think the baiter is morally one whit better than the cop.
 

FreeInAZ

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joanie - not being mean here, or trying to be, you might want to keep some of this stuff to yourself. Do some cops do evil? Absolutely! This said, I have known a couple of honest ones, good ones.
 
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countryclubjoe

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All true. But three caveats:

1. LEOs in general should not be bashed. There are good ones and bad ones. I don't know, but I believe that the good outnumber the bad overwhelmingly. We just encounter almost exclusively the bad, making the less discerning think that all are bad. Many cops become jaded in the same way. They deal almost exclusively with thugs and start thinking of everyone as thugs. Don't be the hammer that sees everything as a nail.

2. The rules here do not disallow bashing individual officers and individual departments for specific bad acts. The rules prohibit generalizing to all officers.

3. There is a moral difference between observing a cop violate one's rights (including being the one so victimized) and baiting a cop into violating one's own rights just to be able to make that observation. I don't think the baiter is morally one whit better than the cop.

Hi Eye95- Clearly the good outnumber the bad and the bad tarnish the name of the good.
However the good do not deserve any extra praise for simply doing what they are expected /hired to do. If ninety % of the department are stealing 1 donut and the other 10 % are stealing 2 donuts, 100 percent of the department are still thieves.

In my opinion, cops and teachers should be held to a higher standard.

Just my .02

Best regards

CCJ
 

Maslow7

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Jun 14, 2013
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Montana
One can stand their ground and excert their rights, but still remain calm, soft spoken and polite. I think when they immediately go SCREAMING "AM I BEING DETAINED? AM I FREE TO GO?" That they look crazy and reflect bad on other OCers. I will say those things if I think it is a bad stop or if the LEO wants to do search or such but will act in a calm manner while doing so. The LEOs who sale drugs to someone then arrest them for buying them is different in that the LEO is doing something that would be illeagal for us to do. We (those who OC) are doing something leagl. How can doing something legal bait an LEO into doing something illegal? While many of those videos are posted by Richard Heads, They should have been left alone in the beginning.

AGREED!!!

I think that when I watch these you tube videos it makes me shake my head in disbelief that the LEO's really have no clue about open carry laws. I feel it is important for these videos to be made so this can change and the ONLY way it will change is to expose it. Just my 2 cents though!
 
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