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Is open carry a FIRST Amendment Right?

Wstar425

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2014
Messages
565
Location
Tomahawk and Abbotsford, Wi.
How so you ask? I'm making a statement.

What is it? Don't mess with me.

If burning and walking on the Flag is protected by the First Amendment, why not a Firearm?

Way off base? Any legs to stand on?

I'm mulling it over and thinking of including this idea into my conversation with people that approach me about open carry, but would like to get a handle on some of the possible pitfalls that might come up. So, don't be afraid to tell me what you think, like this group needs any encouragement.
 

davidmcbeth

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,170
Location
earth's crust
Err no. Your first amendment rights are only active in public forums (ie less areas than public spaces) anyways.

Its a natural right. No need to look for gov't "stamp of approval"
 
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Wstar425

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2014
Messages
565
Location
Tomahawk and Abbotsford, Wi.
Sounds like 'brandishing' that other states than Wisconsin may prohibit.
An open carried, legally holstered firearm is often referred to as a deterrent, or as having some value as a deterrent. If that's not saying "don't mess with me", what is is it saying? Brandishing would be a couple of steps away from this, at least in WI. Where OC is not legal, maybe?

I guess a better way of asking my question might have been, Does open carry have any protection under the First Amendment? I see it as making a statement, am I the only one? Maybe I'm way out in left field here, too much of a stretch? So far, it appears so.
 
B

Bikenut

Guest
An open carried, legally holstered firearm is often referred to as a deterrent, or as having some value as a deterrent. If that's not saying "don't mess with me", what is is it saying? Brandishing would be a couple of steps away from this, at least in WI. Where OC is not legal, maybe?

I guess a better way of asking my question might have been, Does open carry have any protection under the First Amendment? I see it as making a statement, am I the only one? Maybe I'm way out in left field here, too much of a stretch? So far, it appears so.
My openly carried sidearm is a statement in support of the right to keep and bear arms and a protest against infringements upon that right in the same manner as the signs folks carry during protests. So to my mind not only is open carry a facet of free speech it is also protected political speech.

Courts may not agree with me and the progressive anti gun left will most certainly disagree with me ....... while that same progressive anti gun left staunchly defends carrying signs as free speech and protected political speech.
 

Wstar425

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2014
Messages
565
Location
Tomahawk and Abbotsford, Wi.
My openly carried sidearm is a statement in support of the right to keep and bear arms and a protest against infringements upon that right in the same manner as the signs folks carry during protests. So to my mind not only is open carry a facet of free speech it is also protected political speech.

Courts may not agree with me and the progressive anti gun left will most certainly disagree with me ....... while that same progressive anti gun left staunchly defends carrying signs as free speech and protected political speech.
Thanks! You said it way better than I, but this is what I was trying to get at.

Is this a reasonable arguement one could make in a discussion in support of open carry? I realize the courts and the left will not agree, but one has to start somewhere, right?
 

color of law

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 7, 2007
Messages
5,000
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
An open carried, legally holstered firearm is often referred to as a deterrent, or as having some value as a deterrent. If that's not saying "don't mess with me", what is is it saying? Brandishing would be a couple of steps away from this, at least in WI. Where OC is not legal, maybe?

I guess a better way of asking my question might have been, Does open carry have any protection under the First Amendment? I see it as making a statement, am I the only one? Maybe I'm way out in left field here, too much of a stretch? So far, it appears so.
Is open carry protected under the first amendment? Yes it is. But, the courts in each state may look at it differently.
 

BB62

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Joined
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Messages
4,016
Location
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
I've read the assertions of various people who say that it is (and I believe it is, to a degree) - BUT I believe I've also read at least one court case where in order to claim First Amendment protection, the act had to clearly communicate something.

In the case I recall reading, a topless woman claimed 1A protection for her act of 'freeing the tatas'. :cool:

So, are OCers 'freeing the firearms'?

I don't know.
 
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countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
You are in theory expressing support for the 2nd A by open carrying, expression falls under the 1st A... One need not say anything to exercise his/her right under the 1st.. But you should also be studying the 9th A or what was ones called the forgotten amendment however 21st century legal scholars
Like Eugene Volokh, Ronald Dworkin, Alan Deschowitz are quietly rescuing the ninth..

The ninth incorporates all our basic God given or natural rights, rights that are so basic the founders did not feel to address said rights..
Right to Privacy, right to associate, right to express, right to think, and right to protect ourself and family and property etc and many others, etc..

The right to keep and bear arms in defense of family and property existed long before the constitution..

Read up on "Natural rights"... The information you seek shall be attained there.

My .02

Regards
CCJ
 
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WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,912
Location
North Carolina
Is open carry protected under the first amendment? Yes it is. But, the courts in each state may look at it differently.
Yuppers, that is the way I see it, unless there is a SCOTUS ruling in the future. I don't carry openly as speech, I carry that way not to be victim, but support those that do carry to make a statement.
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
Yuppers, that is the way I see it, unless there is a SCOTUS ruling in the future. I don't carry openly as speech, I carry that way not to be victim, but support those that do carry to make a statement.
Love your sig..I hope to provide you with more real soon... However you may not have enough room for your sophism sycophantic perfidious prose.
if you need assistance understanding my polemical post, reach out to old curmudgeon, he loves word-salad..

My .02
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,912
Location
North Carolina
Love your sig..I hope to provide you with more real soon... However you may not have enough room for your sophism sycophantic perfidious prose.
if you need assistance understanding my polemical post, reach out to old curmudgeon, he loves word-salad..

My .02
Are you planning more racist rants? Then yes they will end up in my sig line.
 

countryclubjoe

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
2,505
Location
nj
How so you ask? I'm making a statement.

What is it? Don't mess with me.

If burning and walking on the Flag is protected by the First Amendment, why not a Firearm?

Way off base? Any legs to stand on?

I'm mulling it over and thinking of including this idea into my conversation with people that approach me about open carry, but would like to get a handle on some of the possible pitfalls that might come up. So, don't be afraid to tell me what you think, like this group needs any encouragement.
" free people claim their rights, as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their magistrates" Thomas Jefferson...

A quote I recommend you memorize and articulate to the people that approach...

Regards
CCJ
 

Werz

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2012
Messages
301
Location
Northeast Ohio
I won't claim that open carry is a First Amendment right, although there is an argument to be made for that. I believe it is definitely a First Amendment exercise.

I consider open carry to be an act of "free speech," and it is free speech of the most protected variety: political free speech. Burning an American flag is political free speech. Wearing a jacket that reads "F*** The Draft" into a courthouse is political free speech. Openly and visibly carrying a firearm is equivalent to those acts, particularly when it is done in an environment where it considered socially unacceptable.

Heller left open many situations where firearms could be regulated, including the carry of firearms in sensitive areas and carrying concealed firearms. I don't see that disappearing anytime soon. But there may be a First Amendment argument in some situations. Burning the American flag cannot be banned as a political act, but it is clear that it may still be a violation of laws that ban fire and burning of any objects. Likewise, there are circumstances where it is illegal to carry a firearm under any circumstances, but in places where licensed concealed carry is lawful, but where open carry is banned, I think there is a good argument that an when an otherwise lawfully carried firearm becomes illegal if the firearm is visible, it constitutes a suppression of political free speech.

The benefit of open carry as an act of political free speech is like any other act of political free speech: it desensitizes people and makes them reconsider what is reasonable and just.
 

D1KarVer

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2016
Messages
16
Location
Alachua County Area
my response is....

BILL OF RIGHTS
Amendment 1 Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
IMO its not a First American Amendment Right....
AMENDMENT 2 -> A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
IMO ITS STILL A 2nd AMENDMENT!
Vocabulary:

infringed: encroached on, taken away or lessened ( its infringed upon!!)

militia: a military organization made up of citizens trained for service in times of a national emergency. ( not sure we really have a Citizen militia unless you count our veterans)

regulated: adjusted to a particular standard (imo we dont)

security: freedom from risk or danger; to make safe (security form our government, and imo we dont 100%)
 

D1KarVer

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2016
Messages
16
Location
Alachua County Area
my 2¢ is maybe you should study it

You are in theory expressing support for the 2nd A by open carrying, expression falls under the 1st A... One need not say anything to exercise his/her right under the 1st.. But you should also be studying the 9th A or what was ones called the forgotten amendment however 21st century legal scholars
Like Eugene Volokh, Ronald Dworkin, Alan Deschowitz are quietly rescuing the ninth..

The ninth incorporates all our basic God given or natural rights, rights that are so basic the founders did not feel to address said rights..
Right to Privacy, right to associate, right to express, right to think, and right to protect ourself and family and property etc and many others, etc..

The right to keep and bear arms in defense of family and property existed long before the constitution..

Read up on "Natural rights"... The information you seek shall be attained there.

My .02

Regards
CCJ
Amendment 9

Constrution of the Constitution



The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
 

D1KarVer

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2016
Messages
16
Location
Alachua County Area
In the parlance of the times, it also meant well equipped and/or well drilled. At that time there were even states that Required citizens to bring both musket or rifle and ammunition to church or face a civil fine.
Right Oh!
And some churches legal carry isn't allowed today. Like in Northern Carolina, and think if the parishioners were legally armed when the assailant entered.. more would be likely alive.
I think sometimes it's better to be Judged by 12 then carried by 6.
If my pastor wouldn't allow me to carry I would move on. I feel its his church and if he is in the loop and agrees good.. if not good by, good luck. No one else there Is Needs To Know. I equipped and drill myself nowadays, before at one point I was a Army Gunner and MP. Im seeing less here willing to group, and im seeing Liberals!

And to those here who misunderstand Church or my phrase. its the pastors Church. Relook to the time of Jesus, a church is a gathering of a group to "worship" like the time of the sermon on the mount. The leader of the Group at the "house" is in this day in age the Pastor or head of household. And the flock is of our teacher thee Christ Jesus, wherefore there are 2 or nore gathered in my name im there forth also. in the original old testament its not thou shalt not kill. Its thou shalt not Murder.
In the book of mathew I think Jesus told his disciples to buy a sword
Was there a second amendment that allowed open sword? Or legal CCW of a sword? We're jipped
 
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