• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

NH: Open carry topless protest (guns, breasts, Keene)

bohdi

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2007
Messages
1,753
Location
Centreville, Virginia, USA
imported post

Ridley, you really need to start working on your "stage presence". Advertising department could use some help as well. I've seen some of your work man, and it's hard to watch. Sometimes I feel like I'm viewing old Morton Downey Jr. shows or even Jerry Springer. Maybe it's time for someone else to be the talking head and for you to be demoted to camera man. Or best grip. Or producer. Just some friendly suggestions, cause editor isn't working out for you. Nice effort but it needs more work, thanks for being part of the cause though.
 

KBCraig

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
4,886
Location
Granite State of Mind
imported post

thx997303 wrote:
Now, she may have been technically breaking the law, but really I don't see the issue.
Ah, there's the rub: technically, she wasn't breaking the law at all.

She was charged with RSA 645:1, "Indecent exposure and lewdness". Here's the statute, in its entirety:

645:1 Indecent Exposure and Lewdness. –
I. A person is guilty of a misdemeanor if such person fornicates, exposes his or her genitals, or performs any other act of gross lewdness under circumstances which he or she should know will likely cause affront or alarm.
II. A person is guilty of a class B felony if:
(a) Such person purposely performs any act of sexual penetration or sexual contact on himself or herself or another in the presence of a child who is less than 16 years of age.
(b) Such person purposely transmits to a child who is less than 16 years of age, or an individual whom the actor reasonably believes is a child who is less than 16 years of age, an image of himself or herself fornicating, exposing his or her genitals, or performing any other act of gross lewdness.
(c) Having previously been convicted of an offense under paragraph I, or of an offense that includes the same conduct under any other jurisdiction, the person subsequently commits an offense under paragraph I.
III. A person shall be guilty of a class A felony if having previously been convicted of 2 or more offenses under paragraph II, or a reasonably equivalent statute in another state, the person subsequently commits an offense under this section.
 

thx997303

Regular Member
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
2,712
Location
Lehi, Utah, USA
imported post

Interesting, since breasts are not genitals, and she wasn't penetrating anything. No law broken.



Awesome.
 

NoHadji

Regular Member
Joined
May 24, 2009
Messages
41
Location
, ,
imported post

AWDstylez wrote:
AbNo wrote:
AWDstylez wrote:
I love law enforcement bias.  Nice tits hangining out?  We'll sit and argue with her while popping a boner.  Guy with a dick hanging out?  Taz him.
Like you'd do any different? :lol:

Or maybe you WOULD.... :uhoh:

Would I taz the girl or pop a boner at the guy? :p

Yah he would talk with the dude for 30 minutes.:what:
 

shad0wfax

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2008
Messages
1,069
Location
Spokane, Washington, USA
imported post

There are too many chiefs here and not enough braves in this video; they should have let Cassidy speak for herself and not comment until after her arrest. It's probably unwise to have a crowd of people heckling the LEO while one person is engaging in civil disobedience as it forces that person to speak more loudly and appear to be verbally combative as opposed to verbally assertive.

I don't think it's a good idea to open-carry while breaking laws or ordinances unrelated to firearms. It can lend credence to the argument that OC'ers are a fringe element of society and it also discredits our own argument that we're all law-abiding citizens.

In fact, one of the arguments I make for open carry in my state hinges around public nudity and this video greatly discredits argument. Here's some background:

In the Seattle, WA area there are ordinances against public nudity. There are also state laws prohibiting exposing oneself to a minor. However some WA citizens have participated in the WNBR (World Naked Bike Ride) in Seattle. The women cover their nipples with tape and the men use socks to cover their genitals. Oddly enough the tape and socks don't last for more than a few blocks before they fall off. The police escorted them in the 2008-2009 ride, and no arrest were made that I know of.

I have, on occasion, had folks say, "you should cover that up" or "that's offensive" while I was open carrying. My favorite responses are "the law does not require me to conceal, it allows me to conceal" and "it was not intended to offend you and it is lawful behavior." If given the opportunity, I'll mention the WNBR story and the differences between lawful behavior that is outside of the social norm and unlawful behavior which is outside the social norm. The types of people who make the "cover it up" or "offends me" statements seem to respond quite positively to these arguments and in many cases actually apologize or admit that perhaps my behavior really isn't all that offensive.

If naked Open-Carry becomes commonplace enough in NH to go "viral" on YouTube, however, my argument will lose a great deal of its legitimacy. I doubt many others outside of my circle of friends use my argument, but nude open-carry does indeed discredit what is an otherwise law-abiding movement...
 

shad0wfax

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2008
Messages
1,069
Location
Spokane, Washington, USA
imported post

KBCraig wrote:
Ah, there's the rub: technically, she wasn't breaking the law at all.

She was charged with RSA 645:1, "Indecent exposure and lewdness". Here's the statute, in its entirety:

645:1 Indecent Exposure and Lewdness. –
I. A person is guilty of a misdemeanor if such person fornicates, exposes his or her genitals, or performs any other act of gross lewdness under circumstances which he or she should know will likely cause affront or alarm.
II. A person is guilty of a class B felony if:
(a) Such person purposely performs any act of sexual penetration or sexual contact on himself or herself or another in the presence of a child who is less than 16 years of age.
(b) Such person purposely transmits to a child who is less than 16 years of age, or an individual whom the actor reasonably believes is a child who is less than 16 years of age, an image of himself or herself fornicating, exposing his or her genitals, or performing any other act of gross lewdness.
(c) Having previously been convicted of an offense under paragraph I, or of an offense that includes the same conduct under any other jurisdiction, the person subsequently commits an offense under paragraph I.
III. A person shall be guilty of a class A felony if having previously been convicted of 2 or more offenses under paragraph II, or a reasonably equivalent statute in another state, the person subsequently commits an offense under this section.
The portion of that RSA that I bold-faced is the portion the prosecution will most likely pursue in court. The fact she was bare-breasted in public and some other citizen reported her to the police may be prima-facie evidence of an act of gross lewdness that Cassidy knew was likely to cause affront.

Let's face it, you can't possibly argue the ability to make a conscious decision to protest nude in public and yet be unaware that someone else may take affront to your nudity. If the prosecution uses the YouTube video as evidence, Cassidy may be in a world of legal hurt because of some of the statements she made while speaking with the officer; they indicate that she was well-aware that her actions may offend others and at one point said that the law didn't mean shit... Judges don't look very favorably on a verbally affirmed disregard for the law.

One other issue is that you must define "genitals" in the context of the RSA. Genitals may be defined in the RSA as including breasts for women or they may not. If female breasts are considered "genitals" in the RSA, her case is sunk. Even if there is no definition of "genitals" in the RSA and there is no case-law to support it, a judge could rule that female breasts apply to this RSA which would again, sink her case. She would then be forced to appeal.

I hope she has a good attorney.
 

N6ATF

Banned
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
1,401
Location
San Diego County, CA, California, USA
imported post

shad0wfax wrote:
KBCraig wrote:
Ah, there's the rub: technically, she wasn't breaking the law at all.

She was charged with RSA 645:1, "Indecent exposure and lewdness". Here's the statute, in its entirety:

645:1 Indecent Exposure and Lewdness. –
    I. A person is guilty of a misdemeanor if such person fornicates, exposes his or her genitals, or performs any other act of gross lewdness under circumstances which he or she should know will likely cause affront or alarm.
    II. A person is guilty of a class B felony if:
       (a) Such person purposely performs any act of sexual penetration or sexual contact on himself or herself or another in the presence of a child who is less than 16 years of age.
       (b) Such person purposely transmits to a child who is less than 16 years of age, or an individual whom the actor reasonably believes is a child who is less than 16 years of age, an image of himself or herself fornicating, exposing his or her genitals, or performing any other act of gross lewdness.
       (c) Having previously been convicted of an offense under paragraph I, or of an offense that includes the same conduct under any other jurisdiction, the person subsequently commits an offense under paragraph I.
    III. A person shall be guilty of a class A felony if having previously been convicted of 2 or more offenses under paragraph II, or a reasonably equivalent statute in another state, the person subsequently commits an offense under this section.

 
The portion of that RSA that I bold-faced is the portion the prosecution will most likely pursue in court. The fact she was bare-breasted in public and some other citizen reported her to the police may be prima-facie evidence of an act of gross lewdness that Cassidy knew was likely to cause affront.

Let's face it, you can't possibly argue the ability to make a conscious decision to protest nude in public and yet be unaware that someone else may take affront to your nudity. If the prosecution uses the YouTube video as evidence, Cassidy may be in a world of legal hurt because of some of the statements she made while speaking with the officer; they indicate that she was well-aware that her actions may offend others and at one point said that the law didn't mean @#$%... Judges don't look very favorably on a verbally affirmed disregard for the law.

One other issue is that you must define "genitals" in the context of the RSA. Genitals may be defined in the RSA as including breasts for women or they may not. If female breasts are considered "genitals" in the RSA, her case is sunk. Even if there is no definition of "genitals" in the RSA and there is no case-law to support it, a judge could rule that female breasts apply to this RSA which would again, sink her case. She would then be forced to appeal.

I hope she has a good attorney.

Indeed. I did not hear anything that indicated the police were acting on a citizen report, just that they were merely citing the law, and deciding then and there that they were affronted and alarmed. This may be a case law-making moment, as with disturbing the peace here in CA, officers cannot be disturbed; it has to be a victim who makes the arrest. Noise violations
 

AWDstylez

Banned
Joined
Jul 3, 2008
Messages
2,785
Location
, Connecticut, USA
imported post

Maybe everyone overlooked the obvious here... this was supposed to be an open carry protest, but she was a hell of a lot more concerned with it being a topless protest. What is it they were looking to accomplish? If it was good exposure (no pun intended) for open carry, they failed miserably.
 

shad0wfax

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2008
Messages
1,069
Location
Spokane, Washington, USA
imported post

N6ATF wrote:
Indeed. I did not hear anything that indicated the police were acting on a citizen report, just that they were merely citing the law, and deciding then and there that they were affronted and alarmed. This may be a case law-making moment, as with disturbing the peace here in CA, officers cannot be disturbed; it has to be a victim who makes the arrest. Noise violations


I'll have to watch the video again, but the police said that a citizen called in a complaint about the nudity. The protesters then heckled the police about making a call to cancel the complaint because they (the protestors) were not affronted or alarmed.

I agree with the rationale than an officer can't be disturbed and it has to be John Q Public that is disturbed for it to be a problem.

EDIT: At 2:16-2:19the officer says "if nobody called us, we wouldn't have panic or alarm" at 2:20 he says "...fact that multiple people..." then he's interrupted by one of the demonstrators who says, "I'd like to call you to tell you to go away, can I do that? Can I call and cancel the complaint by saying I have no problems?" Then others go off about being alarmed by canoes...

Really, the demonstrators, especially one of the more vocal men and the topless girl didn't conduct themselves ina way to make their point and push the law without consequences. The more I listen to this, the more I shake my head...
 

American Rattlesnake

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2007
Messages
281
Location
Oregon, USA
imported post

shad0wfax wrote:
Really, the demonstrators, especially one of the more vocal men and the topless girl didn't conduct themselves ina way to make their point and push the law without consequences. The more I listen to this, the more I shake my head...
At the risk of putting words in your mouth, I think what you are trying to say is that instead of conducting themselves in a calm, rational manner, the group appears in the video to be exceedingly confrontational, belligerent, and rude.

I'm sure we can all agree that there is a need to stand firm and mount a strong defense of our liberties; however, it is, in my opinion, best to maintain a calm demeanor and put ourselves forward as civilized gentlemen and gentlewomen. As has been said so many times on this forum, we are engaged in a battle of ideas. We are out to win hearts and minds and to educate those who do not know of their liberties.

Which attitude will facilitate this end?
 

ixtow

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
5,038
Location
Suwannee County, FL
imported post

Why are there so few women with brains in the world. I might have to move to NH.... Bah, no, it's just too damn cold and close to those other filth states....
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
imported post

AWDstylez wrote:
Maybe everyone overlooked the obvious here... this was supposed to be an open carry protest, but she was a hell of a lot more concerned with it being a topless protest. What is it they were looking to accomplish? If it was good exposure (no pun intended) for open carry, they failed miserably.
I don't think she was open carry protesting she just happened to be open carrying while making a statement about her feelings that women should go topless.
 

Theseus

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
964
Location
Lamma Island, HK
imported post

I think that sometimes being so concerned with "appearance" we forget the whole point.

Open carry is only one aspect. If open carry is to be taken seriously then it should be treated no different than wearing shoes or bearing breasts.

The police cared not one bit about the firearm and focused on the bare breasts. . . that is as it should be. . . except that he shouldn't focus on bare breasts.

Fight for freedom in every manner and way possible. If bearing our arms means we can't or should not exercise our other rights then what have we accomplished?
 

KBCraig

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
4,886
Location
Granite State of Mind
imported post

shad0wfax wrote:
KBCraig wrote:
Ah, there's the rub: technically, she wasn't breaking the law at all.

She was charged with RSA 645:1, "Indecent exposure and lewdness". Here's the statute, in its entirety:

645:1 Indecent Exposure and Lewdness. –
I. A person is guilty of a misdemeanor if such person fornicates, exposes his or her genitals, or performs any other act of gross lewdness under circumstances which he or she should know will likely cause affront or alarm.
The portion of that RSA that I bold-faced is the portion the prosecution will most likely pursue in court. The fact she was bare-breasted in public and some other citizen reported her to the police may be prima-facie evidence of an act of gross lewdness that Cassidy knew was likely to cause affront.
No, mere exposure cannot constitute gross lewdness; lewdness requires a sexual act.
 

KBCraig

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
4,886
Location
Granite State of Mind
imported post

AWDstylez wrote:
Maybe everyone overlooked the obvious here... this was supposed to be an open carry protest, but she was a hell of a lot more concerned with it being a topless protest. What is it they were looking to accomplish? If it was good exposure (no pun intended) for open carry, they failed miserably.

I'm afraid you failed miserably: this was not an open carry protest, it was an equal-right-to-be-bare-chested protest.

Those involved just happened to have been OCing, as they typically do.
 

ixtow

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
5,038
Location
Suwannee County, FL
imported post

KBCraig wrote:
AWDstylez wrote:
Maybe everyone overlooked the obvious here... this was supposed to be an open carry protest, but she was a hell of a lot more concerned with it being a topless protest. What is it they were looking to accomplish? If it was good exposure (no pun intended) for open carry, they failed miserably.
I'm afraid you failed miserably: this was not an open carry protest, it was an equal-right-to-be-bare-chested protest.

Those involved just happened to have been OCing, as they typically do.
What is that chick's name, huh? That's my kinda girl.

C'mon AWD, c'mon, I loaded it for you.....
 

shad0wfax

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2008
Messages
1,069
Location
Spokane, Washington, USA
imported post

American Rattlesnake wrote:
shad0wfax wrote:
Really, the demonstrators, especially one of the more vocal men and the topless girl didn't conduct themselves ina way to make their point and push the law without consequences. The more I listen to this, the more I shake my head...
At the risk of putting words in your mouth, I think what you are trying to say is that instead of conducting themselves in a calm, rational manner, the group appears in the video to be exceedingly confrontational, belligerent, and rude.

I'm sure we can all agree that there is a need to stand firm and mount a strong defense of our liberties; however, it is, in my opinion, best to maintain a calm demeanor and put ourselves forward as civilized gentlemen and gentlewomen. As has been said so many times on this forum, we are engaged in a battle of ideas. We are out to win hearts and minds and to educate those who do not know of their liberties.

Which attitude will facilitate this end?
In this case, I can accept you putting words in my mouth. The point I was alluding to is precisely what you said; there's a huge difference between being assertive about ones rights and being belligerent and confrontational. More than one person in the crowd there gave me the impression that they were closer to belligerent behavior rather than assertive behavior, arrested suspect included.
 

ixtow

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
5,038
Location
Suwannee County, FL
imported post

shad0wfax wrote:
American Rattlesnake wrote:
shad0wfax wrote:
Really, the demonstrators, especially one of the more vocal men and the topless girl didn't conduct themselves ina way to make their point and push the law without consequences. The more I listen to this, the more I shake my head...
At the risk of putting words in your mouth, I think what you are trying to say is that instead of conducting themselves in a calm, rational manner, the group appears in the video to be exceedingly confrontational, belligerent, and rude.

I'm sure we can all agree that there is a need to stand firm and mount a strong defense of our liberties; however, it is, in my opinion, best to maintain a calm demeanor and put ourselves forward as civilized gentlemen and gentlewomen. As has been said so many times on this forum, we are engaged in a battle of ideas. We are out to win hearts and minds and to educate those who do not know of their liberties.

Which attitude will facilitate this end?
In this case, I can accept you putting words in my mouth. The point I was alluding to is precisely what you said; there's a huge difference between being assertive about ones rights and being belligerent and confrontational. More than one person in the crowd there gave me the impression that they were closer to belligerent behavior rather than assertive behavior, arrested suspect included.
Instead of just asserting one attitude as better than the other, I like to think about why.

Catching more flies with what?

Boobs aside, have we really come to a point where we have to be 'nice' to our government, or else?
 
Top