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Toddler fatally shoots mom in Idaho Walmart

Firearms Iinstuctor

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One would think at this time a year in that part of Idaho some warmer clothing would have been worn.

But then I have seen people go out in some very cold and nasty weather in outfits that would be more appropriate on a warm summer day then bundle up because of fashion and looks.

Sounds like this women was will versed in firearms was and outdoor type who made a lapse in judgment that cause her to paid the ultimate price.

I am not perfect by any means and I doubt any of the members here are also.
 

MAC702

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If you are talking about on-body holster, sure. I don't assume that all holsters are on-body. Perhaps you meant to imply something that I missed.
Or something was presupposed that wasn't said. No matter.
 

utbagpiper

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Outside of convenience during winter, or draconian laws there really is no reason not to OC over CC. That is why it is called conceal carry, because the person is HIDING that they are armed.

Actually, I listed quite a number of reasons to conceal, rather than open carry, that had nothing to do with winter, draconian laws, or shame about OC, nor for any tactical reason beyond simply being armed when OC is uncomfortable or inconvenient for some reason.

I OC in many cases. And there are certain events where I very deliberately OC as an exercise of 1st amendment as well as 2nd amendment rights.

During the winter months, my OC often turns into casual concealed carry as I put on a jacket but make no attempt to hide my otherwise OCd firearm or holster.

But if I'm doing something where my OC'd firearm is likely to get unusually dirty, physically restrict my movement, get damaged, or cause damage to something else, I will then choose specifically to conceal or to pocket carry. I just don't see the virtue of abusing my gun, body, or my vehicle by OCing while working on the car, while fixing sprinklers, or while getting completely caked in mud riding my dirt bike.

I also take exception to the suggestion that a person who chooses to carry concealed (or "discretely" as we've taken to calling it locally when interacting with the legislature or media) is "hiding" anything. I'm no more "hiding" my gun by having it out of sight sometimes than I am "hiding" my wallet, sunglasses, or cellphone by dropping them into a pocket rather than hanging them on my belt.

My lawful, safe, peaceful, possession of a firearm is nobody else's businesses. As such I am not "hiding" anything from anyone. I am simply choosing to carry in different manners to suit my attire, circumstances, and sometimes mood, for the day.

Charles
 

WalkingWolf

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hide1
hīd/
verb
verb: hide; 3rd person present: hides; past tense: hid; gerund or present participle: hiding; past participle: hidden

1.
put or keep out of sight; conceal from the view or notice of others.
"he hid the money in the house"
synonyms: conceal, secrete, put out of sight; More
camouflage;
lock up, stow away, tuck away, squirrel away, cache;
informalstash
"he hid the money"
antonyms: flaunt, expose
(of a thing) prevent (someone or something) from being seen.
"clouds hid the moon"
synonyms: obscure, block out, blot out, obstruct, cloud, shroud, veil, blanket, envelop, eclipse
"clouds hid the moon"
antonyms: reveal
keep secret or unknown.
"Hal could hardly hide his dislike"
synonyms: conceal, keep secret, cover up, keep quiet about, hush up, bottle up, suppress, curtain, bury; More
disguise, dissemble, mask, camouflage;
informalkeep under one's hat, keep a/the lid on
"he could not hide his dislike"
antonyms: disclose
conceal oneself.
"Juliet's first instinct was to hide under the blankets"
synonyms: conceal oneself, sequester oneself, hide out, take cover, keep out of sight; More
lie low, go underground;
informalhole up
"they hid in an air vent"
use (someone or something) to protect oneself from criticism or punishment, especially in a way considered cowardly or unethical.
"companies and manufacturers with poor security can hide behind the law"

Take all the exception you want, but concealing IS hiding.
 

utbagpiper

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I have the same experiences with my students. The women want to conceal because carrying is "frowned upon" by their friends and especially relatives. The love the comfort of a good holster at the range, and most are wearing jeans most of the time anyway. Many of them are also very keen on attractive holsters like my Milt Sparks sharkskin. There is little lack of fashion except those who attempt to rationalize it.
I'm familiar with a lot of women who wear dresses or light skirts often enough that they have a real need for some mode of carry other than a waistband type holster (either CC or OC).

I personally don't care to OC when wearing a suit and tie. I suppose if I had--and were inclined to carry--a nice 6 shooter while wearing a western cut suit (which I also don't own) that would look ok. But when I wear a suit and tie, I go for something a little more discrete than my usual OWB OC retention holster.

But I can assure you that "shame" or social stigma over OCing a holstered handgun has not much entered into my equation of how to carry. On rare occasion when I'm an invited guest to a private event where the host would not care to see OCd guns, I have chosen to CC. But to me this is no different than not showing up to a traditional, formal wedding in beach attire than anything akin to social stigma about OCing guns. My experience is that well over 90% of the population never see my OCd gun anyway. They just aren't looking for it, don't tend to stare at others' waist area anyway, and probably "see" cell phone or multi-tool rather than the actual gun.

In any event, it appears to me that there are actually more options for on-body CC than OC with many women's clothing, and this was a woman with a history of carrying her gun. I've seen no evidence to suggest that she chose off body carry because of any social pressure regarding OC at all and so talk of how social stigma of OC contributed to this accident is rank conjecture at best.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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Take all the exception you want, but concealing IS hiding.
And hiding beyond dictionary definitions to conceal the implications of your word choice is also hiding.

I do not "hide" my gun any more than you "hide" anything you drop into your pockets.

As documented in Cramer's "The Racist Roots of Gun Control" modern laws against carry concealed firearms were aimed quite overtly at freed black slaves and other "undesirables". To imply through loaded word choice that carrying a firearm in a discrete manner is somehow untoward is to draw from the same mindset that imposed "literacy tests" on voters.

Charles
 

WalkingWolf

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You didn't go there? Why yes you did! You tried to equate open carry to racism. Why am I not surprised.

As has been discussed and is part of history GUN CONTROL had it's roots in racism. Concealed carry laws ARE gun control, they impose a tax/fee on carrying a firearm. In some states a very expensive tax, which makes it harder for the poor to afford SD tools.
 
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The Truth

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Jul 18, 2014
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My fiancee has made the personal decision to acquire her CHP and primarily "hide" her weapon. She has chosen to do so because she feels more pressure OCing and she does not feel comfortable enough or experienced enough to OC full time. I have explained to her the many reasons to OC, and she does not disagree and fully supports OC, and will even likely OC quite frequently, but I actually have a lot of respect for her for being able to communicate that uncomfortability and make the personal choice to carry anyway and continue to train so that the uneasy feelings go away.

For me, the best argument for a female to OC is the deterrent factor. Picture a 5'3" skinny girl "hiding her gun" walking to her car in a dark parking lot. If an attacker was scoping her out and tailing her, he has no idea she is armed so he will likely more aggressively pursue her than if she was carrying a visible firearm. Being that she has communicated being insecure about her lack of experience, I asked her, "Well would you rather be forced to use your weapon or not have to use it?" This is pretty much a no-brainer rhetorical question meant to facilitate the line of thinking that OC can and will deter an attacker.

Her weapon of choice is a CZ 75B.
 

utbagpiper

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You didn't go there? Why yes you did! You tried to equate open carry to racism. Why am I not surprised.
As has been noted by others, when someone starts claiming a post said something very different from what it clearly said, it is clear they have nothing constructive left to contribute to the discussion. I believe you are getting close to violating the spirit of rule #16"

Forum Rules said:
•(16) NO FALSE ATTRIBUTIONS: Editing quoted posts by another member to make it appear as if they said something other than what they intended will NOT be tolerated!
While you are quite obviously not quoting me at all, it is clear to whom you are responding and it making assertions of what I wrote that are so far outside the realm of any rational interpretation, you are quite deliberately trying to falsely attribute positions to me that I do not hold while staying inside rule 16. Stop that.

I never equated OC to racism. I suggested that hostility to concealed carry has some racist roots. I'm not at all surprised that you felt compelled to try to spin that into something very different so as to deflect from your own unsupportable position.

Charles
 

utbagpiper

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Look at the image to the top left of your screen, nothing more attractive than a woman who takes responsibility for herself. The claim that OC is not fashion is silly when your loved ones life is on the line, more than silly but stupid. That is why they make pink and chrome guns, for the women who want to be fashion smart while being responsible. The purse was a bad idea for somebody who did not take the time to think about other fingers than her own. I also advise strongly against purse carry, it is the only time I stick my nose in on how a lady carries.
Actually, you seem to be sticking your nose into whether a lady chooses to carry OC or CC on-body.

Some of us are not so arrogant as to presume to tell a lady what she can or should consider fashionable for her or any given outfit she might wear.

I support open carry. I also and equally support concealed carry and casually concealed carry, partially covered open carry, etc. There are obvious benefits to on-body carry over off-body carry of defensive handguns. But once the handgun is on-body, I don't think concealed vs open makes much of a difference at all assuming proper holster for each.

Charles
 

WalkingWolf

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When asked I tell women of the safety concerns of purse carry, as far as the rest of your BS it is the same as your OC racism claims. I certainly do not tell women to OC or CC, but was replying to your nonsense about a women should conceal because of fashion.:uhoh:
 

MAC702

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I'm familiar with a lot of women who wear dresses or light skirts often enough that they have a real need for some mode of carry other than a waistband type holster (either CC or OC).

I personally don't care to OC when wearing a suit and tie. I suppose if I had--and were inclined to carry--a nice 6 shooter while wearing a western cut suit (which I also don't own) that would look ok. But when I wear a suit and tie, I go for something a little more discrete than my usual OWB OC retention holster.

But I can assure you that "shame" or social stigma over OCing a holstered handgun has not much entered into my equation of how to carry. On rare occasion when I'm an invited guest to a private event where the host would not care to see OCd guns, I have chosen to CC. But to me this is no different than not showing up to a traditional, formal wedding in beach attire than anything akin to social stigma about OCing guns. My experience is that well over 90% of the population never see my OCd gun anyway. They just aren't looking for it, don't tend to stare at others' waist area anyway, and probably "see" cell phone or multi-tool rather than the actual gun.

In any event, it appears to me that there are actually more options for on-body CC than OC with many women's clothing, and this was a woman with a history of carrying her gun. I've seen no evidence to suggest that she chose off body carry because of any social pressure regarding OC at all and so talk of how social stigma of OC contributed to this accident is rank conjecture at best.

Charles
Okay. Off-body has significant safety issues beyond on-body carry. OC's stigma puts more emphasis on concealing and therefore alternative forms of concealing, including off-body. I make no further assumptions in general or specific to this case regardless of attempts to strawman them to me.
 
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WalkingWolf

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One member made a comment that OC properly would have prevented this, and one member took exception creating a stink storm over what is pretty clear.

But since this has turned into a OC fudd track, this is from Heller~~

“Likewise, in State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann. 489, 490 (1850), the Louisiana Supreme Court held that citizens had a right to carry arms openly: “This is the right guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, and which is calculated to incite men to a manly and noble defence of themselves, if necessary, and of their country, without any tendency to secret advantages and unmanly assassinations.””
 

The Truth

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@utbagpiper You seem insulted by the "if she was OC it wouldn't have happened" argument.
 

utbagpiper

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One member made a comment that OC properly would have prevented this, and one member took exception creating a stink storm over what is pretty clear.

But since this has turned into a OC fudd track, this is from Heller~~

“Likewise, in State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann. 489, 490 (1850), the Louisiana Supreme Court held that citizens had a right to carry arms openly: “This is the right guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, and which is calculated to incite men to a manly and noble defence of themselves, if necessary, and of their country, without any tendency to secret advantages and unmanly assassinations.””
The only exception was that OC would have yielded some special advantage over on-body CC. And the only "fudd track" has been created by someone who is quite certain he is always right, has trouble playing nicely, and has some new found aversion to quoting those to whom he is responding. The rest of us seem to be quite capable of having mature, civil give-and-take in the discussion.

And how lovely to cite a SCOTUS decision from 1850. I believe that is about the same period (7 years prior) the court was still saying that Dred Scott wasn't a citizen and wasn't entitled to carry a gun at all. I trust you don't share such out-dated views on who should be allowed to carry a gun or the manner in which they should be allowed to carry it.

In the post-bellum period, laws against carrying a gun discretely were passed quite specifically (according to Cramer) to prevent freed slaves from carrying guns at all.

Hostility to carrying a gun peacefully but discretely is quite firmly rooted in the racism of Jim Crow laws.

Now, where do you stand on the right of a person to carry a gun discretely?

Charles
 

WalkingWolf

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The only exception was that OC would have yielded some special advantage over on-body CC. And the only "fudd track" has been created by someone who is quite certain he is always right, has trouble playing nicely, and has some new found aversion to quoting those to whom he is responding. The rest of us seem to be quite capable of having mature, civil give-and-take in the discussion.

And how lovely to cite a SCOTUS decision from 1850. I believe that is about the same period (7 years prior) the court was still saying that Dred Scott wasn't a citizen and wasn't entitled to carry a gun at all. I trust you don't share such out-dated views on who should be allowed to carry a gun or the manner in which they should be allowed to carry it.

In the post-bellum period, laws against carrying a gun discretely were passed quite specifically (according to Cramer) to prevent freed slaves from carrying guns at all.

Hostility to carrying a gun peacefully but discretely is quite firmly rooted in the racism of Jim Crow laws.

Now, where do you stand on the right of a person to carry a gun discretely?

Charles
HELLO! she was carrying in a PURSE and that is typically concealed/hidden from view! Unless she was OCing holding it in her hand and then laying it in the cart I cannot fathom your insistence to try to make it something else. IN THIS CASE a properly OC'd handgun would probably meant the difference between life and death.

And the more you try to claim OC is racist the credibility you lose, like you had any to begin with.

http://jpfo.org/articles-assd02/cramer-racist-roots.htm


Other decisions during the antebellum period were unambiguous about the importance of race. In State v. Huntly (1843), the North Carolina Supreme Court had recognized that there was a right to carry arms guaranteed under the North Carolina Constitution, as long as such arms were carried in a manner not likely to frighten people.[12] The following year, the North Carolina Supreme Court made one of those decisions whose full significance would not appear until after the Civil War and passage of the Fourteenth Amendment. An 1840 statute provided:

That if any free negro, mulatto, or free person of color, shall wear or carry about his or her person, or keep in his or her house, any shot gun, musket, rifle, pistol, sword, dagger or bowie-knife, unless he or she shall have obtained a licence therefor from the Court of Pleas and Quarter Sessions of his or her county, within one year preceding the wearing, keeping or carrying therefor, he or she shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and may be indicted therefor.[13]
 
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utbagpiper

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@utbagpiper You seem insulted by the "if she was OC it wouldn't have happened" argument.
Nope. I'm insulted by hostility (overt or implied) toward the lawful, peaceful carrying of guns in a discrete manner.

I support OC. I also support concealed/discrete carry, casually concealed carry, partially covered open carry, etc.

I tend to take offense when gun grabbers jump on these types of incidents to attack our rights. It seems the only intellectually honest position to take is to be equally offended when anyone else jumps on these incidents to advance their own political or social agenda. This was not caused by gun laws being too loose. All here would agree with that. I assert that there is no evidence to suggest that this was caused by social stigma or shame toward OCing. We have no idea what this woman's general views toward OCing were, nor what may have informed those views.

This is a tragic accident that likely would have been prevented by on-body carry including OC, CC, CCC, or simply keeping her purse firmly in hand. There is no reason, other than social/political agenda, to single out OC has being particularly beneficial to preventing this kind of incident or to otherwise implicitly undermine discrete possession of a firearm.

Charles
 

The Truth

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Hostility to carrying a gun peacefully but discretely is quite firmly rooted in the racism of Jim Crow laws.

Now, where do you stand on the right of a person to carry a gun discretely?

Charles
I don't necessarily speak for WW, but I don't believe there is hostility towards CC, there is hostility over the fact that there is a legal distinction between the 2 and that it makes no sense.

It makes me laugh every time I'm at my house and I'm OCing, then I go out for a smoke and put on my 3/4 length jacket while making the joke, "Welp, now I'm illegal but only if I step into the street." It's really absurd. I often show people the difference between legal OC and legal CC and they always laugh and don't believe me until I cite specific laws. Same with vehicle carry.

EDIT* But you ARE taking the CC argument personal. Concealing is hiding. There is no shame in that. I see no reason to argue to the contrary since concealing is by definition hiding.

I support CC, I just don't support a permit system to do so. I believe in the REAL CC, Constitutional Carry.
 
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utbagpiper

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HELLO! she was carrying in a PURSE and that is typically concealed/hidden from view! Unless she was OCing holding it in her hand and then laying it in the cart I cannot fathom your insistence to try to make it something else. IN THIS CASE a properly OC'd handgun would probably meant the difference between life and death.

And the more you try to claim OC is racist the credibility you lose, like you had any to begin with.
Hey. Look. You figured out how to quote me. Very good. Want a Scooby snack?

Is your "credibility" comment intended as a personal insult and attack in violation of Rule 6 banning personal attacks? Can't you simply communicate without making everything personal?

Off body carry, whether OC/CC or otherwise is the issue here NOT OC vs CC.

I've NEVER claimed OC was/is racist. I defy you to quote anything I've written that could conceivably be construed to that end.

I've repeatedly pointed out that hostility to concealed/discrete carry is founded in racist history.

Why do you keep equating hostility to concealed/discrete carry to OC?

Charles
 
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