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Trading Security for Liberty? (a Youtube video you must watch)

GLOCK21GB

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Apr 22, 2009
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Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
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eye95 wrote:
Glock34 wrote:
eye95 wrote:
Are you saying that due process would not apply to the removal of citizenship? I (and the SCOTUS) would have a problem with that.

Not with the stripping of citizenship from one who would wage war on the US, but with that stripping not being a result of due process.
Wow, you sound like a hard line LIBERAL, r u sure that your in the correct forum ? No one cares what you & the SCOTUS have issues with...
Ya know what? If you are genuinely interested in a back and forth of ideas in which your ideas may actually be tweaked or in which you might tweak the ideas of others, you should change your attitude.

You may have had something valuable to say, but I stopped reading where I put the ... .

Are you interested in changing the hearts and minds of others, or in just the misplaced self-satisfaction of thinking you have insulted others well?

Moving on.
insult you ? no, you take care of that very well on your own every time to type.
 

buster81

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Richmond, Virginia, USA
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eye95 wrote:
SavageOne wrote:
eye95 wrote:
The law already allows the stripping of citizenship for someone who joins an army making war on the US. I see joining a terrorist organization that is making terrorist attacks on the US or participating in a terrorist attack against the US as essentially the same thing.

I have no problem with this law. If you make war on us, you are not one of us.

Don't forget thatthe of the framer's of the Constitutionsaid that the citizenry might have to one day rise up against an entrenched government that had become about power instead of the peoples rights(poorly paraphrased). We did not strip the citizenship of Confederate troops, or the Weather Underground, or the Black Panthers.

Let us not forget it will be the government that places these groups on a terrorist list. That would be the same government that recently jailed 9 members of a christian militia. Under this law they could have their citizenship stripped simply for being a member or "supporting" this militia. The government doesn't have enough evidence against these 9 to hold them without bail, but they could strip them of their citizenship under this proposed change.
I was wondering how long it would be before this point was raised. It is an excellent point.

The Founders were criminals and traitors. Had their efforts failed, the English government would have rightly arrested, tried, convicted, imprisoned, and put them (most of them) to death. What they did was treason--but they made the most of it.

They had the courage, when treason was necessary, to commit treason. Thank God they did. Do you think that now is the time to commit treason in America?

I don't.
I don't disagree with you (entirely), but I think the king would have skipped over the parts in red. Based on the kings violations of human rights, it would be my opinion that he had no right to arrest them, but that's just me.
 

eye95

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buster81 wrote:
eye95 wrote:
SavageOne wrote:
eye95 wrote:
The law already allows the stripping of citizenship for someone who joins an army making war on the US. I see joining a terrorist organization that is making terrorist attacks on the US or participating in a terrorist attack against the US as essentially the same thing.

I have no problem with this law. If you make war on us, you are not one of us.

Don't forget thatthe of the framer's of the Constitutionsaid that the citizenry might have to one day rise up against an entrenched government that had become about power instead of the peoples rights(poorly paraphrased). We did not strip the citizenship of Confederate troops, or the Weather Underground, or the Black Panthers.

Let us not forget it will be the government that places these groups on a terrorist list. That would be the same government that recently jailed 9 members of a christian militia. Under this law they could have their citizenship stripped simply for being a member or "supporting" this militia. The government doesn't have enough evidence against these 9 to hold them without bail, but they could strip them of their citizenship under this proposed change.
I was wondering how long it would be before this point was raised. It is an excellent point.

The Founders were criminals and traitors. Had their efforts failed, the English government would have rightly arrested, tried, convicted, imprisoned, and put them (most of them) to death. What they did was treason--but they made the most of it.

They had the courage, when treason was necessary, to commit treason. Thank God they did. Do you think that now is the time to commit treason in America?

I don't.
I don't disagree with you (entirely), but I think the king would have skipped over the parts in red. Based on the kings violations of human rights, it would be my opinion that he had no right to arrest them, but that's just me.
Tyrants often skip the steps in red. However, that is usually for two reasons King George did not have to worry about. 1) Acquittal. The case for treason would have been a slam dunk. 2) Bad publicity. In this case, in England, had the traitors been captured, the trial would have been a national celebration. Tyrants love trials that boost their popularity and power and have no risk attached.

It would be my opinion that he had the right to try the traitors. What cost him that right was his losing the war, turning the traitors into the patriots that (I'm glad) they are recognized to be today.
 

eye95

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buster81 wrote:
eye95 wrote:
SavageOne wrote:
eye95 wrote:
The law already allows the stripping of citizenship for someone who joins an army making war on the US. I see joining a terrorist organization that is making terrorist attacks on the US or participating in a terrorist attack against the US as essentially the same thing.

I have no problem with this law. If you make war on us, you are not one of us.

Don't forget thatthe of the framer's of the Constitutionsaid that the citizenry might have to one day rise up against an entrenched government that had become about power instead of the peoples rights(poorly paraphrased). We did not strip the citizenship of Confederate troops, or the Weather Underground, or the Black Panthers.

Let us not forget it will be the government that places these groups on a terrorist list. That would be the same government that recently jailed 9 members of a christian militia. Under this law they could have their citizenship stripped simply for being a member or "supporting" this militia. The government doesn't have enough evidence against these 9 to hold them without bail, but they could strip them of their citizenship under this proposed change.
I was wondering how long it would be before this point was raised. It is an excellent point.

The Founders were criminals and traitors. Had their efforts failed, the English government would have rightly arrested, tried, convicted, imprisoned, and put them (most of them) to death. What they did was treason--but they made the most of it.

They had the courage, when treason was necessary, to commit treason. Thank God they did. Do you think that now is the time to commit treason in America?

I don't.
I don't disagree with you (entirely), but I think the king would have skipped over the parts in red. Based on the kings violations of human rights, it would be my opinion that he had no right to arrest them, but that's just me.
Tyrants often skip the steps in red. However, that is usually for two reasons King George did not have to worry about. 1) Acquittal. The case for treason would have been a slam dunk. 2) Bad publicity. In this case, in England, had the traitors been captured, the trial would have been a national celebration. Tyrants love trials that boost their popularity and power and have no risk attached.

It would be my opinion that he had the right to try the traitors. What cost him that right was his losing the war, turning the traitors into the patriots that (I'm glad) they are recognized to be today.
 

buster81

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Richmond, Virginia, USA
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eye95 wrote:
buster81 wrote:
eye95 wrote:
SavageOne wrote:
eye95 wrote:
The law already allows the stripping of citizenship for someone who joins an army making war on the US. I see joining a terrorist organization that is making terrorist attacks on the US or participating in a terrorist attack against the US as essentially the same thing.

I have no problem with this law. If you make war on us, you are not one of us.

Don't forget thatthe of the framer's of the Constitutionsaid that the citizenry might have to one day rise up against an entrenched government that had become about power instead of the peoples rights(poorly paraphrased). We did not strip the citizenship of Confederate troops, or the Weather Underground, or the Black Panthers.

Let us not forget it will be the government that places these groups on a terrorist list. That would be the same government that recently jailed 9 members of a christian militia. Under this law they could have their citizenship stripped simply for being a member or "supporting" this militia. The government doesn't have enough evidence against these 9 to hold them without bail, but they could strip them of their citizenship under this proposed change.
I was wondering how long it would be before this point was raised. It is an excellent point.

The Founders were criminals and traitors. Had their efforts failed, the English government would have rightly arrested, tried, convicted, imprisoned, and put them (most of them) to death. What they did was treason--but they made the most of it.

They had the courage, when treason was necessary, to commit treason. Thank God they did. Do you think that now is the time to commit treason in America?

I don't.
I don't disagree with you (entirely), but I think the king would have skipped over the parts in red. Based on the kings violations of human rights, it would be my opinion that he had no right to arrest them, but that's just me.
Tyrants often skip the steps in red. However, that is usually for two reasons King George did not have to worry about. 1) Acquittal. The case for treason would have been a slam dunk. 2) Bad publicity. In this case, in England, had the traitors been captured, the trial would have been a national celebration. Tyrants love trials that boost their popularity and power and have no risk attached.

It would be my opinion that he had the right to try the traitors. What cost him that right was his losing the war, turning the traitors into the patriots that (I'm glad) they are recognized to be today.

A mock, fixed trial is not a trial. Just another violation.

The king was a criminal.
 

eye95

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The king was a tyrant. The trial need not be a mock trial nor fixed. The people we see as our Founders were guilty of treason. Fortunately, as a result of their success in the War of Independence, they were no longer subjects of the kingdom in which they were traitors.

Anyway, I have made my point.
 

Nevada carrier

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The Epicenter of Freedom
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eye95 wrote:
The king was a tyrant.  The trial need not be a mock trial nor fixed.  The people we see as our Founders were guilty of treason.  Fortunately, as a result of their success in the War of Independence, they were no longer subjects of the kingdom in which they were traitors.

Anyway, I have made my point.

History is written by the winners. This makes one wonder, how is the war for independence taught to school children in the UK?
 

buster81

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Richmond, Virginia, USA
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Nevada carrier wrote:
eye95 wrote:
The king was a tyrant. The trial need not be a mock trial nor fixed. The people we see as our Founders were guilty of treason. Fortunately, as a result of their success in the War of Independence, they were no longer subjects of the kingdom in which they were traitors.

Anyway, I have made my point.

History is written by the winners. This makes one wonder, how is the war for independence taught to school children in the UK?
It goes by a different name.
 

buster81

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Richmond, Virginia, USA
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eye95 wrote:
The king was a tyrant. The trial need not be a mock trial nor fixed. The people we see as our Founders were guilty of treason. Fortunately, as a result of their success in the War of Independence, they were no longer subjects of the kingdom in which they were traitors.

Anyway, I have made my point.
Did the king ever kill anyone?
 

Hunterdave

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Apr 8, 2010
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Bunkie, Louisiana, USA
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I think there is a difference between a natural born and a naturalized citizen
in that a natural born citizen is afforded the rights and protections by his
birth, his very blood is American. He cannot be stripped of his citizenship
A naturalized citizen is afforded the rights and protections of this nation
by taking an oath. If that oath is violated, his citizenship can be revoked.

If a natural born citizen is stripped of his citizenship for treason, how can
he then be tried for treason if this is no longer his country . He would have
to be held as a POW. Then he could say "I have ceased hostilities against
this country" if it was only a plot( no action) how could they hold him?
I think the gov't would have more options if his citizenship remained in
tact.
Just something I'm throwing out to stir the pot.

Btw, 1776 prt2, I think, is very close, not yet,but close. If things don't
turn around soon, I believe the people that really care about this
country,as it was intended to be, will take action. I also believe, the
number of said people, will be vastly more than most imagine.
 

Hunterdave

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Bunkie, Louisiana, USA
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Now that this thread has been brought back up, there is something I would like to
address.
That being, that our Founders were committing treason with the Revolution.
This is correct under "British Law" as the King had absolute authority, but
now,We The People have the right, implied in the Constitution and outright
stated in the writings of our Founders, to violently overthrow a tyrannical
gov't . If We The People are the gov't ,How can we commit treason against
ourselves? Treason would be to let such gov't stand!

And I do pledge my life,my treasure and my sacred honor to keep this country
free!
Freedom forever!
 

Aaron1124

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Kent, Washington, USA
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I'll keep my freedom, and act as my own personal security. Thanks. Maybe if every citizen of our great nation took this responsibility, we wouldn't have such a problem.
 

eye95

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canadian wrote:
eye95 wrote:
If you make war on us, you are not one of us.

Who the hell is "us"?
Why the hell are you asking? More to the point, why the hell are you asking so rudely?

If you have a civil question to ask, I will be happy to answer.
 

Washintonian_For_Liberty

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Mercer Island, Washington, USA
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eye95 wrote:
SavageOne wrote:
eye95 wrote:
The law already allows the stripping of citizenship for someone who joins an army making war on the US. I see joining a terrorist organization that is making terrorist attacks on the US or participating in a terrorist attack against the US as essentially the same thing.

I have no problem with this law. If you make war on us, you are not one of us.

Don't forget thatthe of the framer's of the Constitutionsaid that the citizenry might have to one day rise up against an entrenched government that had become about power instead of the peoples rights(poorly paraphrased). We did not strip the citizenship of Confederate troops, or the Weather Underground, or the Black Panthers.

Let us not forget it will be the government that places these groups on a terrorist list. That would be the same government that recently jailed 9 members of a christian militia. Under this law they could have their citizenship stripped simply for being a member or "supporting" this militia. The government doesn't have enough evidence against these 9 to hold them without bail, but they could strip them of their citizenship under this proposed change.
I was wondering how long it would be before this point was raised. It is an excellent point.

The Founders were criminals and traitors. Had their efforts failed, the English government would have rightly arrested, tried, convicted, imprisoned, and put them (most of them) to death. What they did was treason--but they made the most of it.

They had the courage, when treason was necessary, to commit treason. Thank God they did. Do you think that now is the time to commit treason in America?

I don't.
Pure sophistry .... absolute bunk! First, what we are talking about... as Jefferson wrote in our Country's Declaration of Independence "That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." Making the action we are advocating not treason... but patriotism. You on the other hand sound like a treasonous provoceteur whose sole purpose is to try and root out people willing to stand up to the tyrants this government has spawned... Taking back this country and restoring our Constitutional Republic is not, nor will it ever be treason...

I'm calling you out as a pre-existing traitor to the Constitution and to these United States.
 

GLOCK21GB

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It's only treason if you don't win............:cool: When it begins..the actors will all be classified as DOMESTIC TERRORISTS by the .gov & the media.... not freedom fighters & certainly not patriots...:X
 

eye95

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Do you think that we have arrived at the point in America where it is time for treason?

It's a simple question. I answered no.

The Founders thought it was time for treason in 1776, and they made the most of it. They mutually pledged to each other their Lives, their Fortunes and and their sacred Honor.
 

GLOCK21GB

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Green Bay, Wisconsin, USA
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eye95 wrote:
Do you think that we have arrived at the point in America where it is time for treason?

It's a simple question. I answered no.

The Founders thought it was time for treason in 1776, and they made the most of it. They mutually pledged to each other their Lives, their Fortunes and and their sacred Honor.
I plead the 5th. They are watching
 

sudden valley gunner

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eye95 wrote:
Do you think that we have arrived at the point in America where it is time for treason?

It's a simple question. I answered no.

The Founders thought it was time for treason in 1776, and they made the most of it. They mutually pledged to each other their Lives, their Fortunes and and their sacred Honor.

The problem I have is what the government can now construe as Treason.

I bet most of us here fit into the new administrations DHS watch list. We believe in the constitution and the second amendment, we believe in limited government. We believe in freedom of speech, etc. Although it varies from liberal to conservative to libertarian and independants, most of us here believe these things which is something the government believes makes us more suspect in their eyes for what?, Treason?
 
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