Jack House
Regular Member
Well, 100% of snakes with tongues that I caught. I had the whole snake, so I had the tongue.
All snakes are good snakes.
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Very anti OC website "ActiveResponseTraining" dot net
- Thread starter DanNabis
- Start date
JoeSparky
Centurion
And catching snakes with tongues was not the question in response to the proverb given!Well, 100% of snakes with tongues that I caught. I had the whole snake, so I had the tongue.
All snakes are good snakes.
Jack House
Regular Member
Don't play with snakes? Seems simple enough. :uhoh:
Snake bite...one of the less gross ones.
See, snakes are badass! They're just like us, they wanna be left alone but god forbid you screw with one.
Yes, but the proverb assumes a stupid method of catching a snake's tongue. Why would I want try stick my hand in a snake's mouth that isn't being controlled by me? That's like asking someone to shoot you so you can catch the bullet. I'd rather just take it out of the gun.
Therein rests the point = Do stupid things, win stupid prizes.--snipped--
Yes, but the proverb assumes a stupid method of catching a snake's tongue. Why would I want try stick my hand in a snake's mouth that isn't being controlled by me? That's like asking someone to shoot you so you can catch the bullet. I'd rather just take it out of the gun.
The latter is defanging - the snake still posesses the method, but not the means.
JoeSparky
Centurion
Wisdom is LEARNING from the good and bad experiences of OTHERS!
Firearms Iinstuctor
Regular Member
Well, 100% of snakes with tongues that I caught. I had the whole snake, so I had the tongue.
All snakes are good snakes.
I only find the bigger ones worth eating.
Not sure the criteria don't skew the result.
More than one citizen have had their gun taken from them and used against them, albeit rare but it has happened. CCW holders, gun shop owners handing a gun to a fake customer and even dope deals gone bad have all resulted in such situations. I would have to say that elimination of police is an acceptable criteria since they intentionally put themselves in close proximity to known criminals effecting arrest, but why the security officer? Seems to me since they typically have no authority beyond that of a regular citizen they should not be eliminated from the criteria. When you adjust the criteria to eliminate a majority of persons participating to alter the result it seems like the political game of the anti's.
I am not sure what the actual numbers are of OC'ers that fit within the criteria, when compared with the population of the USA posed against it, it likely is not too far from the percentage you have in the quote above. If it gets adjusted to include firearms openly carried in vehicles then pointing out the number of rifles taken from the gun racks in trucks should count.
I understand that it is to refute the "someone can just grab your gun" argument against OC but altering it to suit is not unlike the officers claim in the article. His claim that he can grab your right wrist, pull it to his chest and usually disarm is likely accurate. He leaves out the part where he trains regularly to do this and it is part of his training program for police officers to disarm combative armed suspects. I believe it to be true that most criminals do not drill on "disarming" some might.
When you consider the average security guard gets nearly no training I think it puts them into about the same category as the average OC'er and thus should not be eliminated. The biggest difference in the two, the security guard is more likely known to be armed vs the average OC'er would likely state very few people even notice.
My point: The "move to a softer target" is a more sound debate point and does not give the impression that training would be a waste as it is not something that happens.
Opinions vary, that one is mine, others will have theirs
papa bear
Regular Member
LMTD. you will have to cite those cases. it is one thing to do a LEO like that and a regular citizen. you know what the LEO's training is but not the citizen. unknown factor there
GRAPESHOT, when are we going to get a "like" button? you and some others on here have wrote things that i would like to put a like to
GRAPESHOT, when are we going to get a "like" button? you and some others on here have wrote things that i would like to put a like to
Not sure what cases it is you want cited. Are you talking about security guards? Google will get you hits in milliseconds.
Not sure the criteria don't skew the result.
More than one citizen have had their gun taken from them and used against them, albeit rare but it has happened. CITE CCW holders, gun shop owners handing a gun to a fake customer and even dope deals gone bad have all resulted in such situations. CITE I would have to say that elimination of police is an acceptable criteria since they intentionally put themselves in close proximity to known criminals effecting arrest, but why the security officer? Seems to me since they typically have no authority beyond that of a regular citizen they should not be eliminated from the criteria. When you adjust the criteria to eliminate a majority of persons participating to alter the result it seems like the political game of the anti's.
I am not sure what the actual numbers are of OC'ers that fit within the criteria, when compared with the population of the USA posed against it, it likely is not too far from the percentage you have in the quote above. If it gets adjusted to include firearms openly carried in vehicles then pointing out the number of rifles taken from the gun racks in trucks should count.
I understand that it is to refute the "someone can just grab your gun" argument against OC but altering it to suit is not unlike the officers claim in the article. His claim that he can grab your right wrist, pull it to his chest and usually disarm is likely accurate. He leaves out the part where he trains regularly to do this and it is part of his training program for police officers to disarm combative armed suspects. I believe it to be true that most criminals do not drill on "disarming" some might.
When you consider the average security guard gets nearly no training I think it puts them into about the same category as the average OC'er and thus should not be eliminated. The biggest difference in the two, the security guard is more likely known to be armed vs the average OC'er would likely state very few people even notice.
My point: The "move to a softer target" is a more sound debate point and does not give the impression that training would be a waste as it is not something that happens.
Opinions vary, that one is mine, others will have theirs
i believe those are the areas requiring some type of validation instead of your hyperbole statement...
thanks
ipse
Ok, well I am still not sure what it is you are asking for so I just grabbed you one of each. A security guard being disarmed and robbed, a drug buyer disarmed and robbed, a gun store customer ask to see a gun and ammo then loads it and robs, and a ccw person whom is taken from behind and disarmed then robbed. Now that one does not state a ccw but it references the gun in his pocket. i suppose it could have been sticking out of his pocket and there fore would qualify as an OC event but that would render the entire discussion moot.
http://www.myfoxphilly.com/story/21431523/suspects-take-gun-from-security-guard-in-pharmacy-robbery
http://www.questia.com/newspaper/1G1-126536261/restaurateur-beaten-robbed-with-own-gun
http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/...014/Police-Man-robbed-Lansing-his-own-handgun
http://www.wcnc.com/news/crime/Gastonia-man-robbed-with-his-own-hand-gun-150315515.html
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...isbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=L00EAAAAIBAJ&pg=3741,6360890
Being disarmed as part of a robbery where the gun is not the target does not constitute an OC gun snatch.
OMG are you freakin serious? So we are going to stand around and PRETEND it is not a concern because the criminal stole more than just the gun? I got a lot of respect for ya Grapeshot but I find it really hard to even begin to PRETEND that the thugs robbing the pharmacy did not consider the gun as a PRIMARY target which they NEEDED to obtain to finish out the crime, and frankly I do not believe you really think otherwise either, but I could be wrong.
LMGDAO WTF!
Well I think I am going to have to conceed that there likely never has been or even will be a firearm snatch that does not include additional theft with it and I agree with my original point 100% now, it is not that it is of no concern, it is that the criteria used to develop the statement make it nearly impossible.
I ain't a criminal however without any doubt what so ever, if I come up to snag your gun from its holster and get it done, i am gonna point it at ya and ask for your wallet too and i am not too sure there is anyone who wouldn't.
The criteria not only make it impossible, they render it completely irrealavent and false.
The original response came from the hypothisus that OCers would have their gun snatched simply because they were OCing, no other elements required.
Impossible? No, but highly unlikely. Definitely not false or irrealavent.
Have guns (OD & CC) been taken in the course of other crimes? - w/o a doubt, but that isn't the question/problem that was posed.
Need to change that last word to "allowed" instead of required as that would mean they could be part of the situation but do not have to be thus eliminating the intended narrow statistic.
While I do not believe it has likely happened, I do agree 100% that the criteria have been adquately narrowed to such a point that even if it has happened repeatedly it is not likely that it will ever be reported in such a manner to alter the claim.
papa bear
Regular Member
No, being a security guard in itself a target.kind of expected
can you cite where a average citizen has been the victim of a gun grab?
sudden valley gunner
Regular Member
They skip the fact that security guards are private "police". So they are targeted in some instances just like cops would be, there is the perceived perception they have authority to do something to them or stop them much like the perception about cops.
I have indeed given several cites where the average citizen was the subject of a gun grab. There has even been plenty of discussion on this webspace as well.
To be more specific, an OC'er had his weapon taken from him in Milwaukee and then was killed with it, however that does not count because of the additional crime post gun grab.
There was also one in Virginia I believe it was that was also discussed, however I am sure it was also dismissed for some other criteria to keep the claim alive. I won't be wasting any time looking it up to cite if you are interested look it up.
I have already completely conceded that there is likely no case to meet the criteria, I am simply pointing out that the criteria has been purposefully crafted in such a manner to make the statistic fit the agenda, a tactic most often employed by the anti's instead of rights activist.
im sorry, these are your cites to back up your claim...the straws must be far and few in your neck of the woods.
one was rushed from behind or two apparently handed over their firearm, or in your illustrious case of the security guard who lost his firearm at gun point, or the one which has no iota of detail except an anti capital broadcast blurb?
and you are laughing on the floor...trust me i would be sooooo embarrassed for bring up these reference cites (one dating back to 1948 where the man handed the gun tho was precious) to the point of closing my forum account and shirking away into the night hoping nobody knew who i was in real life.
i believe the term hyperbole still applies to your perception of a gun grab from a citizen...
ipse
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