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BREAKING NEWS: At Least 10 Dead, 20 Hurt in Aurora Colorado Shooting Spree

Haz.

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Apr 19, 2010
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I come from a land downunder.
My dear friends in America. I am gutted by this terrible news. My prayers go out to all those affected by this terrible event.The perp will suffer in the fires of Hell for all eternity because of what he did. God abhors murder as we all do.

Typically, the anties down under have grabbed this and are running with it for all they are worth.
 
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Bellum_Intus

Regular Member
Joined
May 13, 2012
Messages
540
Location
Rush, Colorado
POS.



Good point, but that's if you have 10-15 rounds. My largest mag is 17 rounds in my 9mm. My carry weapon is my .357 as it has more stopping power and I am a better shot with it. But the point that someone inexperienced is not going to react well to a couple of instant broken ribs is one for consideration.

Here's the video I promised: I think that would hurt..

[video=youtube;0dK1s3MWfvA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dK1s3MWfvA[/video]
 

Bellum_Intus

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May 13, 2012
Messages
540
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Rush, Colorado
My dear friends in America. I am gutted by this terrible news. My prayers go out to all those affected by this terrible event.The perp will suffer in the fires of Hell for all eternity because of what he did. God abhors murder as we all do.

Typically, the anties have grabbed this and are running withit for all they are worth.

Where's the like button..

Thank you..

--Rob
 

M-Taliesin

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Apr 22, 2011
Messages
1,504
Location
Aurora, Colorado
My dear friends in America. I am gutted by this terrible news. My prayers go out to all those affected by this terrible event.The perp will suffer in the fires of Hell for all eternity because of what he did. God abhors murder as we all do.

Typically, the anties down under have grabbed this and are running with it for all they are worth.

Howdy Pardner!
Here is something to share with those antis down under:
http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=17847

We do thank you for your prayers and good thoughts for the folks affected by this terrible havoc.
Something those antis consider is the man's use of guns probably saved lives.
Consider that he planted more than 30 explosive devices in his apartment with the intent of killing more people.
If he didn't have guns (the primary weapon jammed on him, BTW) he might have used explosives instead.
The death count could have been much higher.
As bad as it was, it could have been much worse.

It could also have been much better, had somebody been able to return fire.
I think the guy would have been startled, perhaps even broken off his attack, if somebody sent a few rounds in his direction.
But we will never know for certain, because the only guy with a gun in that theater was a cold blooded killer.

Blessings,
M-Taliesin
 

tittiger

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2008
Messages
82
Location
Springfield, MO
Open carry demostration

Not knowing any of the victims I can do nothing for them other than try to make sure that:

1.) Our guns rights are not taken, ensuring that future generations are not in a worse place.
2.) People have a right to carry (concealed included) everywhere, and there are no more victim zones such as this theater.

I suggest to any able to participate an open carry demonstration in Aurora. To protest and point out that this did not
have to happen. The alternative media will make it go viral.

Do you want a world where only cops have guns?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MST4RhWdlMQ&feature=youtu.be

Do you want a world where only the UN has guns?

http://www.infowars.com/is-batman-massacre-staged-terror/
 

O2HeN2

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Joined
Jan 23, 2012
Messages
229
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
Worst mass murder in US history

For those that may have forgotten, or might not be aware, the worst mass murder in US history (ignoring US government sponsored activities) was the Happy Land Club fire which was committed with gasoline.

The calls to ban, limit high-capacity containers and mandatory background checks and waiting periods on gasoline was non-existent. No surprise.

If some anti goes on the offensive with you, go on the offensive back and ask him why nothing was done about the tools a mass-murderer used at the Happy Land Club that racked up a death count that exceeded the total deaths AND injuries in Aurora? They of course will come back with an arguments that boils down to the reasoning that the good uses of gasoline outweighs the bad (which is totally valid and correct). Then you ask them to give you examples of the positive uses of firearms, they'll typically come back with some weak statements about police, military and perhaps hunting. At which point you ask "Do you know how often firearms are used defensively by ordinary citizens in the US?" Don't allow wishy-washy answers, here, press them until they admit "I don't know". Then come back with "Well, I do, and you will cost more lives banning guns than saving them -- perhaps you should research BOTH sides of an argument and become better informed before taking an irresponsible position that will do more harm than good!" And for extra credit "Would you like to learn how to shoot to be better informed?"

O2
 

mahkagari

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each and everyone one of those people who attended a movie that night should sue their pants off. Not just those who died or were shot, but those who had to suffer the traumatic experience of having their life a moment away from death....

this!!
 

O2HeN2

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Jan 23, 2012
Messages
229
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
...each and everyone one of those people who attended a movie that night should sue their pants off. not just those who died or were shot, but those who had to suffer the traumatic experience of having their life a moment away from death...
Let's stop wasting our time on this. The movie theater had a no firearms sign, which means that every patron voluntarily chose not to be armed, either by disarming before entering or being your average run-of-the-mill sheep.

We understand the concept of voluntary submission well when it comes to a search by law enforcement -- if you voluntarily submit to a search, anything they find is admissible as evidence. You don't volunteer, and it's inadmissible. If you "volunteer" under threat (coercion), any evidence is inadmissible.

By voluntarily disarming (if necessary) and entering the theater, you waived any right you have to sue for being unable to defend yourself. They set the rules and you accepted them.

Only if the theatre held a knife to your throat to make the entrance criteria coerced would you have a legal leg to stand on. Saying "I couldn't see the movie without being disarmed first!" is not coercion by any definition.

Believe me, I'd like it if people could sue, but they can't, period.

O2
 
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tittiger

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Sep 19, 2008
Messages
82
Location
Springfield, MO
Let's stop wasting our time on this. The movie theater had a no firearms sign, which means that every patron voluntarily chose not to be armed, either by disarming before entering or being your average run-of-the-mill sheep.

We understand the concept of voluntary submission well when it comes to a search by law enforcement -- if you voluntarily submit to a search, anything they find is admissible as evidence. You don't volunteer, and it's inadmissible. If you "volunteer" under threat (coercion), any evidence is inadmissible.

By voluntarily disarming (if necessary) and entering the theater, you waived any right you have to sue for being unable to defend yourself. They set the rules and you accepted them.

Only if the theatre held a knife to your throat to make the entrance criteria coerced would you have a legal leg to stand on. Saying "I couldn't see the movie without being disarmed first!" is not coercion by any definition.

Believe me, I'd like it if people could sue, but they can't, period.

O2

I am going to play devils advocate here O2HeN2. For starters it is my understanding that adults at the age of 18, that can fight in the military, can not own a pistol in the land of the free. Secondly there are Saturday night special laws that have taken away low end guns for people that can afford nothing else. Thirdly the concealed carry permit system when you add everything up costs let's say $200 that is cost prohibitive for many in this country. (don't laugh this amount stopped me from having a CC for 3 years. And I was one of the dedicated ones.) Fourth the prohibited possessor laws unconstitutionally take this right from many many people.

I agree most people choose to be unarmed, but now if some wake up and want to carry the 4 reasons above may prevent them from carrying legally. My solution when I have had to carry illegally in the past was to dust any tyrannical psychopath that was going to lock me in a rape cage for exercising my God given rights. The same actions when committed by a smurf do not excuse the same treasonous action if you happen to wear a badge. Americans should not have to make decisions like that to exercise God given rights. Yet they do.
 

mahkagari

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By voluntarily disarming (if necessary) and entering the theater, you waived any right you have to sue for being unable to defend yourself. They set the rules and you accepted them.

<snip>

Believe me, I'd like it if people could sue, but they can't, period.

You can always sue. Whether you'll win is a different question. With enough signers-on, there may be an attorney willing to take it.
 

O2HeN2

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Jan 23, 2012
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Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
[much deleted] Americans should not have to make decisions like that to exercise God given rights. Yet they do.
I guess I'm a bit confused because I fail to see where we disagree. Perhaps this last point may be where we diverge.

My rights end where yours begin. A private property owner can make any request of me for permission to enter his private property. If I respect his rights, I will respect his request. No firearms? I won't go there. Coat and tie required? I won't go there.

If you don't like the policy, DON'T GO THERE!

I was about to go see "Brave" in 3D. I guess I won't.

There's a HUGE distinction between private restrictions and government restrictions. I'm all against government restrictions on the 2nd. Private restrictions on the other hand, I dislike, but will abide by because that's the private owner's right as much as it's my right to keep and bear arms free from government restrictions.

Many carry folks say "Cover up and go!" To me, that's incredibly hypocritical -- You're all for "rights" until it's some else's rights and then you'll blithely trample all over theirs.

O2
 

LoneEchoWolf

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Alamosa,Colorado
I guess I'm a bit confused because I fail to see where we disagree. Perhaps this last point may be where we diverge.

My rights end where yours begin. A private property owner can make any request of me for permission to enter his private property. If I respect his rights, I will respect his request. No firearms? I won't go there. Coat and tie required? I won't go there.

If you don't like the policy, DON'T GO THERE!

I was about to go see "Brave" in 3D. I guess I won't.

There's a HUGE distinction between private restrictions and government restrictions. I'm all against government restrictions on the 2nd. Private restrictions on the other hand, I dislike, but will abide by because that's the private owner's right as much as it's my right to keep and bear arms free from government restrictions.

Many carry folks say "Cover up and go!" To me, that's incredibly hypocritical -- You're all for "rights" until it's some else's rights and then you'll blithely trample all over theirs.

O2

Agreed +1
 

M-Taliesin

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Aurora, Colorado
By voluntarily disarming (if necessary) and entering the theater, you waived any right you have to sue for being unable to defend yourself. They set the rules and you accepted them.
Believe me, I'd like it if people could sue, but they can't, period.
O2

Howdy Pard!
I will disagree with your analysis here. There is under law the concept of "Implied Warrantability" or "Warranty of Merchantability".
To give an example, we all assume that the theater (as in this case) has fire abatement systems in place to keep movie goers safe in case of fire.
It falls under "reasonable care" and is part of a concept referred to as reasonable expectation of a customer that a product or service will perform as expected.
Now if that fire abatement system does not exist, and a fire ends up killing people, suits are indeed likely, even probable, and winnable.
Reasonable care was not upheld, and the customer's reasonable expectation of performance by the theater failed to prove true.

In this instance, I think a good attorney worth his bar card could make a solid case that reasonable care was not taken to ensure safety and security of movie patrons who reasonably expected a safe environment. That would be covered under implied warrantability.
The case can be made that the exit used by the shooter should have been set with an alarm to notify if someone opened that door.
An alarm going off at such an exit, especially during the movie, would be reasonable grounds to suspect something amiss.
When management detected an alarm because of an unexpected exit door opening, they could at least investigate.
Perhaps a patron was about to suffer a seizure and ducked out the nearest exit. He could be out there suffering a grand mal seizure.
Nobody checks because nobody is the wiser. The guy could die out there unattended and untreated.
Or the alarm going off at those exit doors, especially during a movie, could indicate a fire had broken out and people were fleeing.
How do you know if the darn door ain't set with an alarm?
If no other compelling reason can be given to have alarms on that door, how about the interest of the business itself?
How do they prevent somebody from paying for his own admission, then opening the exit door to let in a bunch of his buddies?
In addition to an alarm capable of notifying management of an opened exit door, why did they not have security cameras to see what's going on at those exit doors?
They aren't that expensive any longer, and represent a very cheap alternative to what happened in Aurora.
Somebody goes out the exit door during a movie. Grounds for suspicion something's up.
Check the security camera, see the guy arming up out back. Call the cops.
In this scenario, he might have been taken down by the cops before having a chance to shoot anybody inside.
Reasonable care. Due diligence. Not in this case. Not by a long shot.

The point being, reasonable care (due diligence) would suggest that the expectation of patrons entering the premisis was they'd be safe inside.
They weren't.
They felt the theater had sufficient security to ensure their safety so they could leave their sidearm in the car or at home.
It didn't.
Now I wonder if they actually do have a fire supression system!

Blessings,
M-Taliesin
 

tittiger

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Joined
Sep 19, 2008
Messages
82
Location
Springfield, MO
There are some nebulous areas of liberty - that as we as a society rarely if ever discuss.

Let's address the topic of your rights on another's private property - say his private business in Aurora.

Beyond a shadow of a doubt, a person that has property whether it be his business or his home
has a right of association to not allow any type of person there that he desires. You or I, do not have to
think if fair, or moral, or an intelligent decision. If this person wants to exclude any person for any reason
from his private property whether it be his home or business, whether it is based on sex, religion, race, age,
looks, smell, or anything else he has this right - this is the definition of property rights.

Society has this one arse backwards and calls it discrimination. Well you might know that at one time the ability to discriminate
was a positive thing. For example: I think it a good thing that I discriminated against men when I looked for someone
to marry - as I am very hetero sexual. :)

I think that the idea that people that can require that you surrender God given rights when on their property should be
questioned. Especially those that do no harm to them. I can see a business not allowing absolute free speech on their premises,
(such as being rude to other customers) but disallowing people to defend their lives in a certain manner (i.e. firearms) has to
be questioned in my mind.

Society I think also has this arse backwards just like it has most things arse backwards. We should not have to surrender all of our
rights while on private property, especially the right to life.
 

O2HeN2

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Jan 23, 2012
Messages
229
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
Howdy Pard!
I will disagree with your analysis here. There is under law the concept of "Implied Warrantability" or "Warranty of Merchantability".
To give an example, we all assume that the theater (as in this case) has fire abatement systems in place to keep movie goers safe in case of fire.
It falls under "reasonable care" and is part of a concept referred to as reasonable expectation of a customer that a product or service will perform as expected.
Now if that fire abatement system does not exist, and a fire ends up killing people, suits are indeed likely, even probable, and winnable.
Reasonable care was not upheld, and the customer's reasonable expectation of performance by the theater failed to prove true.
And I will disagree with your analysis. "Reasonable care", using your fire abatement example, is defined by the existing fire codes, rules and regulations. These themselves define what's reasonable -- you follow them all, and you can't be successfully sued if there's a fire (I've added "successfully" to avoid the "you can sue anyone for anything" comment) because you've done everything required by law.

There are no codes for "general safety" or especially “protection of the individual” that exist as far as I know (I'm willing to be corrected) which creates a "reasonable care" level for theater-goers (or anyone, anywhere) beyond the health and fire codes that the theater (or any place) must abide by. I mean, it’s even been found that the police have no requirement to protect individuals (Warren v. District of Columbia), how could you hold a theater to a higher standard than the police are held to?

As such, the theater supplied "reasonable care" in this case, which, due to law, is nothing.

O2
 
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O2HeN2

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Jan 23, 2012
Messages
229
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
Society I think also has this arse backwards just like it has most things arse backwards. We should not have to surrender all of our
rights while on private property, especially the right to life.
And it's easy, if you have to surrender your right to life to go on private property you are faced with a choice -- you have to decide if surrendering your ability to defend yourself is worth going on that private property.

This isn't backwards, it's respecting the other person's rights [as wrong as they may be :)]!

If you have a t-shirt that has something on it that a property owner doesn't like they can ask you to stay off their property as well -- that's NOT a 1st amendment violation!

Here, let me state it far more generally and get away from the 2nd specifically:

The Bill or Rights spells out the restrictions on GOVERNMENT, not individuals. Read it. It says "The government can't do this..." and "The government can't do that...". Not "No one can do this" or "No one can do that..."

O2
 
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