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A New Yorker in Israel

carnaby

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"as long as you are a Jewish citizen"

A Jewish citizen, or just an Israeli citizen? Can the Arab Israeli's carry guns too? They do serve in the IDF, IIRC.
 

ForeignDude

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I wonder if there are any provisions for military officers fro other countries to carry in Israel -- easier, more difficult (who knows?). I am an officer in the US Army, and I'd love to visit Israel with my family -- to show my kid the deep, rich history of the region.

I definitely want to go now...
 

thnycav

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Everyone from 18 to 55 is part of the IDF that is why they can carry and the government gives them their weapons. I spent 6 months on Sinai duty with the 101st ABNand got to know a few of them in the IDF.

Second thing citizenship is determined 2 ways by the Blood ( the citizenship of the Mother) or by the land the physical place you where born. As far as Israel goes they have the right of return which means if you are of the Jewish faith you are automatically a Israeli citizen.
 

Wynder

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thnycav wrote:
Everyone from 18 to 55 is part of the IDF that is why they can carry and the government gives them their weapons. I spent 6 months on Sinai duty with the 101st ABNand got to know a few of them in the IDF.

Second thing citizenship is determined 2 ways by the Blood ( the citizenship of the Mother) or by the land the physical place you where born. As far as Israel goes they have the right of return which means if you are of the Jewish faith you are automatically a Israeli citizen.
It essentially sounds like our founding fathers' definition of a 'militia'... any able body willing to defend his or her country. This is how America might be today were we to have enemiesactively engaging ourborders.
 

CPerdue

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GaGunOwner wrote:
snip...

Does anyone else see my point or have a problem with this? An American citizen in a foreign military?
[size="-1"]Lafayette Escadrille. Flying Tigers. 'nuff said - uneducated moron. [/size]
 

thnycav

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You are right when the founding Fathers wrote the Constitution and bill of rights a militia was all able bodied Free men between 18 and 55. They also wanted to make sure that if the government did go too far they would have the means to overthrow it.
 

HankT

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CPerdue wrote:
GaGunOwner wrote:
snip...

Does anyone else see my point or have a problem with this? An American citizen in a foreign military?
[size=-1]Lafayette Escadrille. Flying Tigers. 'nuff said - uneducated moron. [/size]

That's not very nice, CPerdue. Tsk, tsk.
scold.gif
 

Fisherman48768

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personaltrainer1987 wrote:
Hey guys,

This wasn't in New York City or even in the U.S. for that matter, but the couple that I had the conversation with werefellow Jews from Williamsburg (Brooklyn), and were visiting Tel Aviv, so I feel that it should go in the New York forums.

Backround: I just got back from Tel Aviv on Tuesday, April 10, (my Birthday, by the way!) and I had a VERY interesting experience while I was there. You see, as I've mentioned before, I'm a dual citizen with both the U.S. and Israel, so when I was 18 I enlisted into the Israeli Army for 1 1/2 years. Since I'm a dual, I was able to not only choose whether or not I would serve altogether, but if I wanted to serve for the full 3 years or for half of that time. Being patriotic, I decided to serve, but being smart, I decided to serve for half of the usual time! However, because I did the 1 1/2 years of full-time active service option, I have to remain a reservist for 5 years from the time that my enlistment ended. Thus, my enlistment ends on my 25th birthday.

As I am still a reservist in the Israeli Defense Forces, I have to report to Israel for mandatory service and training for4 weeks out of every year. So, I went over, spent a week going through military training and qualifications/tests, and then spent 3 weeks serving in the conflict zones in the west bank.

I LOVED IT!!!! In Israel, EVERYBODY open carry's automatic weapons (8 times out of ten, its an Uzi, as they only cost about a couple hundred dollars in Israel and the government hands them out like candy anyway!) whether they are on active duty, reserves, or no longer serve. (Everybody is still in the officially recognized "populus militia") You literally walk around, and almost everybody you see from like age 14 and up (sometimes younger) has an assualt rifle, a sub-machine gun, or a machine pistol slung over their shoulder or riding on their hip! Concealed carry is HIGHLY frowned upon and very suspicious, as people tend to wonder what exactly it is that you're tryingto hide by concealing your weapon. It's seen as criminal! You need a special permit to carry concealed, and their not very easy to come by (although they are issuing more and more lately.) You literally have to get fingerprinted and registered, interview with a government official in charge of permit issuance, declare your allegiance to the State of Israel, prove that you are religious, and have to declare a formal reason that you can prove as to why you need a permit to carry concealed! (And you guy's thought that New York was bad!) Simply wanting one isn't enough. You have to live in/work in/travel regularly in, one of the conflict zones, or work in a job that requires it, etc. Then, you can only CC with a pre-approved firearm, and get that firearm registered and prove that you've recieved a heavy amount of training with that firearm in a government-approved course. If you are caught carrying any other firearm on your person concealed than the one that you are authorized to carry, you can get arrested! The only exeption to all of this if you want to carry concealed is if you are an off-duty police officer or are/were a lieutenant or above in the IDF. Meaning, if at any point in your mandatory military service you are or were a lieutenant (be it active, reserve, or honorably retired,) you automatically have the right to carry concealed, should you so choose. But, their is no real reason for it. The natural alternative is to just carry open, which their are literally NO restrictions on, at all, what-so-ever, as long as you are a Jewish citizen.

Anyway, about that OC experience. So, my last weekend in Israel, its a Friday afternoon and I just finish all of myservice duties in the Bank for theyear! (that's what we call the West Bank). Me and 2 of my army buddies head out for Tel Aviv on the other side of the country, 'cause we still have1 day left of reservist military service, and since we have to fly out of Tel Aviv anyway, we've been reassigned to that city for the remainder of our tour. But now its the Sabbath and we have the rest of the dayand Saturday off. We get to Tel Aviv, park the army jeep at the motor pool, go up to our hotel rooms, and change out of our military fatigues. We then go out for a day on the town. It's our day off, and we're gonna make the most of it! All of us are dressed in civilian clothes, jeans, sneakers, and t-shirts. The only thing identifying us as IDF is our olive drap, army issuedkippah's (yarmulkas), but then again, everybody wears those, as every adult has served and they are a symbol of supporting our troops. We're also OCing with our duty weapons (the full-size Uzi 9mm sub-machine gun) slung over our shoulders by a rifle sling. In Tel Aviv, we fit right in! (Try THAT anywhere in the U.S.!) Now granted, we're carrying Israeli-style (full mag, empty chamber, safety on as that's the law) but hey, you win some, you lose some.

We go into a coffe shop (VERY popular in Israel) in downtown right by the beach, and my two buddies go head off to the little boys room. I walk up to the counter and have a seat at the bar, looking at the menu. Just then, a husband and wife walk into the shop and stroll over to where I'm sitting. As they sit down on my right at the two empty bar stools there, the wife brushes up against my Uzi. Immediately, she notices it (I don't know how in the hell she missed it in the first place) and she starts to panic! Then, I quickly find out why. She turns to her husband on her right, and says to him in a VERY audible, yet wisper-style tone, "Herb, that kid is wearing a machine gun!!" Here's the catch... she said it in English in a very clear, very distinct Brooklyn Jewish accent! She figured that since she was in Israel and that I was a young guy, I couldn't speak English, just Hebrew (which, in all fairness, is often times the case with young men and women in Israel.)

Her husband says to her, also in a Brooklyn Jewish accent (most likely Williamsburg area) in English, "Well, honey, that's what they do here. We've seen that a lot since we arrived. Why is it surprising you now?" She replies, "Yeah, but this kid looks really, really young, like a teenager! And I just brushed up against a machine gun!"

All the while, I'm just sitting there, looking at the menu, pretending like I can't understand what they're saying! The wife says, "Herb, you speak Hebrew! Would you mind talking to this kid for me?! Ask him why he's wearing an assault rifle!" The husband replies, "Look Marge, I'm not intruding into this kid's personal business! I'm sure that he has some sort of reason for carrying that thing. Besides, there's nothing illegal about what he's doing in this country!"

Marge replies, "Well, he's just a kid (I do look really young, in all fairness) and he's making me nervous with that thing! Would you just talk to him?!"

Herb, "Alright, alright. I'll talk to him, I'll talk to 'em. But don't blame me if he gets pissed of and shoots us both!"

Turning to me, and tapping me on the right shoulder, Herb says to me in really crappy, indistict, heavily accented Hebrew, "Hey kid, my wife wants to know; Why are you carrying around a machine gun?!"

Slowly, I shift my body around to face both him and his wife, both looking at me very intently, and respond in a clear, Connecticut accent in English, "Why do you think?!"

Herb and Marge look astonished! I wish I could describe for you the look on their faces! It was priceless! Marge says, fumbling around her words a lot, "You're an AMERICAN!!!!" I replied, "Yeah, I'm a dual citizen. I spent my early years growing up between Israel and Connecticut, and then i moved permanently to the States when I was a teenager."

Herb; "But, but, why do you carry a gun?! And a machine gun for that matter?! You're an American!!! We don't do that sort of thing!"

I replied; "Well, then your obviously not from the same part of America that I'm from! Where I come from, people do that sort of thing everyday."

Marge; "We're from New York, and people don't even own guns where we live!"

Me; "Oh yes they do! Half of everybody you know owns a gun. They just don't talk about it or carry it."

Herb; "No, that can't be! There's NO WAY! We'd know about it!"

Me; "Would you?"

Marge; "Well, I guess not. Not if they don't talk about it."

Me; "Approximately half of all New Yorkers own guns, statistically speaking."

Herb; "Well, then... I guess you learn something new everyday."

Me; "In my case, I carry both here in Israel and Stateside in Connecticut. Although, admittedly, thestyle of carry and the weapon selection is vastly differentbetween those two locations."

Herb; "Yeah, I'll say! You sure don't see kids walking around with automatic weapons in New York!"

Me laughing; "Sure ya do! They're just breaking the law there. There's a big difference.

Marge; "No, he means doing it legally!"

Me; "I wish that we did though. I like the Israeli method better."

Marge; "Really!! But imagine how much crime there would be!"

Me again laughing hysterically; "Oh yeah! Take a look around you! Do you see shootouts and mass murders in the streets?!! Okay, okay....aside from the Palestinian terrorists attacks, do you see OK corral shootouts and mass murders in the streets here?!"

Herb; "Well no, but..."

Me interrupting him; "But nothing! Aside from the terrorist attacks, Israel has essentially NO violent crime!Our citizen-on-citizen violent crime rate is the lowest in the entire developed world! Why do you think that is? It's cause EVERYBODY'S armed! No criminal in their right mind is going to try to mug or rape a Jew in Israel. They know that they'll get shot about 50 or 60 times before they can even get going! Imagine if that was the case in America. Every law-abiding citizen walked around with a gun. There would be NO CRIME!!! Criminals would be scared shitless of doing anything wrong to anyone!"

Herb; "Well yeah, I guess that you have a point, but I would be too scared in America to go outside my house if I knew that everybody that I met was armed!"

Me; "Well, how do you feel right now? Do you feel scared, or nervous, or do you feel calm and relaxed?"

Marge; "Well, right now I feel calm and relaxed, I guess."

Me; "Yeah, well guess what. EVERYBODY around you right now is armed!! (There were about 40 or so people in the coffe shop at that moment, about half of them with automatic weapons over their shoulders or on their hips, but I approached a random guy wearing a kippah sitting in a chair, no weapon visible, reading a Tenach (the old testament).

Me, to the random guy, speaking in Hebrew; "Hey sir, what's your name?"

Random guy; "Moshe Latsman, why?"

Me (showing him my IDF ID card); "Corporal (my hebrew name), Israeli Army. Are you armed?"

Moshe Latsman; "Of course!"

Me; "Let's see that weapon and permit."

Moshe stands up, opens up his suit jacket, reaches with his right hand to his left shoulder holster, and pulls out a glock 23 (.40 caliber compact) and hands it over to me. Herb and Marge look stunned! The look on their faces were priceless! I lookover the guys permit and gun, tell him he's all set (even though the gun he was carrying WASN'T the Heckler and Koch USP .45 that he was registered for, but I couldn't give two shits less) and he goes back to doing his thing.

Me (to Herb and wife); "See, I told you. EVERYBODY that you see is ARMED! Now tell me, do you feel any less safe than you did a grand total of thirty seconds ago?"

Herb; "Well, no, I guess not, but I still don't like guns."

Me; "And that's your perogative and you're welcome to it. Just don't force that on other people, or allow our politicians back in the States to force it on us!

Marge; "Well, it was good talking to you, young man."

Me; "Shabbat Shalom" (Happy Sabbath)

Herb and Marge; "Shabbat Shalom."


I really hope that they learned something from all of that.
Quite a story you got there,
MaxineBSresponse.gif
 

KBCraig

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GaGunOwner wrote:
CPerdue wrote:
GaGunOwner wrote:
snip...

Does anyone else see my point or have a problem with this? An American citizen in a foreign military?
[size="-1"]Lafayette Escadrille. Flying Tigers. 'nuff said - uneducated moron. [/size]

I know about the Flying Tigers. Did I say that I agreed with them being in a foreign military??? While I think they were admirable, times were different. I still just don't get why a U.S. citizen would join a foreign military. I'm not trying to stir this up again from months ago...

P.S. I'm a history teacher. :lol:
Then you surely know about the thousands of Americans who went to Canada and joined the British Army and RAF in WWI and WWII, before America joined the fray. Not to mention the Lincoln Brigade in Spain -- they get credit, even if they were communists.

Why shouldn't an American be free to join a foreign military? Million of non-citizens have honorably served our nation by joining the military service.
 

sdg319

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This one's for personaltrainer1987. His last great adventure in the Holy Land.

He pulls out his IDF identity card, identifies himself as a "corporal," and demand's to see the man's weapon and permit.

All of that power in an off-duty corporal, huh? The Army guy on the receiving end of just about every order. Hmmh.

Do yourself a favor, kid. When you approach ANYONE like that to check his particulars, have your weapon chambered, the muzzle levelled, and your finger alongside the trigger. Do what you did to a drug dealer, or a terrorist, you could wind up on the receiving end of his Kel-Tec .380. And not just you, but every innocent bystander in that cafe.

BE CAREFUL.
 

Liko81

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BobCav wrote:
Jared wrote:
BobCav wrote:
League, you took the words right outta my mouth!

US citizens by birth cannot gain dual citizenship. To declare citizenship in another country, you have to denounce your American citizenship. My wife is a dual citizen of both Brazil and the US and I've researched it plenty. There's something about living in Brazil off my military retirement and not paying US taxes that is very, very appealing.

Lemme tell you, I've been to Israel with the US Navy and there weresome hot sexy young ladies wearing cammies and packing UZI's when I was there. Going to the Western Wall we passed through a security checkpoint and I tried my best to get patted down by one of those fine young ladies... she just laughed and told me to keep moving!

US Citizens by birth can be dual citizens or even citizens of more then 2 places. Many places recognize citizenship by blood. Many of my co-workers are citizens of Mexico because of this. Secondly, you only lose US citizenship if you take an oath of allegance to the other country and you take the oath outside of the United States.

Many US citizens become citizens of the phillipines because you no not need to take an oath of allegiance.
Exactly. Israel might be considered a special case, but if you are a Jew of Jewish descent, you can apply for and maintain citizenship in Israel. The U.S. supports such dual citizenship based on separation of church and state; it regards the oath of allegiance to the Jewish nation as being equivalent to Christian rites like Baptism/Affirmation.

Back on topic, there are parts of Israeli law for security that I agree with, and parts I disagree with.The OP spends time in both places, so he can feel free to correct me, but:

  • The notion of all Israeli citizens being the "populous militia" is codified in law; all citizens of serviceable age, in an emergency, are considered ad hoc military conscripts. An American cannot be forced into military service except by Congressional order (the draft).
  • All citizens carry because it's the law; it's nota RIGHT to keep and bear arms, it's a DUTY, meaning that the right NOT to keep and bear arms does not exist.
  • Compulsory military service is required by much of the industrialized world including Israel, but being in the Army because you have to does not inspire morale. We learned that in Vietnam and have had a volunteer military every since.
  • As such, Israeli citizens get training in firearms as a matter of course. The average American is not a veteran of the Armed Forces nor the police and has little if any weapons training.
  • Walking into your local grocery store in Israel is equivalent to entering a federal building, football stadiumor airport terminal in the U.S. All bags are searched, weapons declared, and persons frisked. I think many here would bristle at such a blatant re-write of the Fourth Amendment, even if it did mean the NFA, '86 ban and all laws regulating OC went away.
  • Strapping an M4 carbine (or Galil; it is Israel after all) to your back might sound cool, but I remember college very well and could not WAIT to get rid of my backpack at the end of the day.
  • Being a Palestinian is a pretty tough gig.
I have some questions about the carry of arms by non-citizens; specifically, is it allowed? My church semi-frequently organizes trips to the Holy Land, and if I went it would be nice to have my pistol on my hip.
 

Liko81

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CPerdue wrote:
GaGunOwner wrote:
snip...

Does anyone else see my point or have a problem with this? An American citizen in a foreign military?
[size=-1]Lafayette Escadrille. Flying Tigers. 'nuff said - uneducated moron. [/size]
And the RCAFinducted black combat aviatorsduring WWII including American citizens. Some of those went on to train the Tuskeegee Airmen.
 

Decoligny

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sdg319 wrote:
This one's for personaltrainer1987. His last great adventure in the Holy Land.

He pulls out his IDF identity card, identifies himself as a "corporal," and demand's to see the man's weapon and permit.

All of that power in an off-duty corporal, huh? The Army guy on the receiving end of just about every order. Hmmh.
In Isreal the IDF have more authority than the Military in the U.S. If they stop you for any reason, you had better fully co-operate, IIRC it carrys some VERY stiff penalties if you don't.

sdg319 wrote:
Do yourself a favor, kid. When you approach ANYONE like that to check his particulars, have your weapon chambered, the muzzle levelled, and your finger alongside the trigger. Do what you did to a drug dealer, or a terrorist, you could wind up on the receiving end of his Kel-Tec .380. And not just you, but every innocent bystander in that cafe.BE CAREFUL.

This is Israel, not Detroit, or Los Angeles. The chances of him running into a drug dealer or terrorist, wearing a business suit, reading the Old Testament, are about as good as your chances of finding a straight male dancer in a Broadway Musical.

As far as winding up on the receiving end of a Kel-Tec .380 (the second smallest semi-auto pistol in the world) along with every innocent bystander in that cafe. You didn't read the part about "EVERYBODY around you right now is armed!! (There were about 40 or so people in the coffe shop at that moment, about half of them with automatic weapons over their shoulders or on their hips". Go ahead and pull out a tiny gun with a 6+1 ammo capacity in a room with at least 20fully automatic Uzis. The terorrist who is that stupid deserves the quick death he would obviously receive.
 

sdg319

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This one is in response to Decoligny.

Point 1: Even in IDF I would imagine law enforcement powers have a rank requirement.

Point 2: Terrorists in Israel have been known to disguise themselves as Hasidic Jews. And drug dealers there are as anti-social as anywhere.

Point 3: I'd put me and my 8 + 1 1911 up against anybody anywhere armed with anything. It's not the gun, it's the man (or woman) behind it. And, besides, in Israel the law for gun carry is weapon locked and unchambered. That means somebody is going down at the bar.

POSTSCRIPT: I'm betting I could dump my 1911, as I bolt for the sidewalk (and make it), before one of those UNCHAMBERED automatic weapons gets the first round jacked in. Believe me when I tell you: I train for this, as I get my take-out order at a biker bar and those guys make Hamas look like cross dressers.
 

Grapeshot

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sdg319 wrote:
snip
And, besides, in Israel the law for gun carry is weapon locked and unchambered. That means somebody is going down at the bar.

POSTSCRIPT: I'm betting I could dump my 1911, as I bolt for the sidewalk (and make it), before one of those UNCHAMBERED automatic weapons gets the first round jacked in. Believe me when I tell you: I train for this, as I get my take-out order at a biker bar and those guys make Hamas look like cross dressers.
So you think that the BGs carry without a round in the chamber?

I glad that you think that you are the fastest gun in town. Must be a really nice feeling. BTW - How many live rounds do you put out at a typical biker bar stop?

First lesson to be learned about gun fights: There is always somebody faster or who cheats better than you do.

A little humility Grasshopper, a little humility.

Yata hey
 

Sonora Rebel

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I remember askin' a girl to dance in a Haifa beer joint. She handed her Uzi to her girlfriend. Cracked me up! Whole place was fulla machine guns 'n pistol packers. 'Looked like a Kosher Mob convention. Everybody was either a soldier or in Reserves. Condition 1 carry with a 1911-A1 ain't a problem when you practice. 'Loved Haifa... Yeah... the few Americans I encountered were freaked...
 

Phssthpok

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sdg319 wrote:
Point 3: I'd put me and my 8 + 1 1911 up against anybody anywhere armed with anything. It's not the gun, it's the man (or woman) behind it. And, besides, in Israel the law for gun carry is weapon locked and unchambered. That means somebody is going down at the bar.

POSTSCRIPT: I'm betting I could dump my 1911, as I bolt for the sidewalk (and make it), before one of those UNCHAMBERED automatic weapons gets the first round jacked in. Believe me when I tell you: I train for this, as I get my take-out order at a biker bar and those guys make Hamas look like cross dressers.

Spoken like as a person who is unaware the the UZI is designed to fire from an open-bolt position. True there's no bullet 'in the chamber', but one still needs only to pull the trigger (without any other actions) to get the arm to discharge.;)
 
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