Extra Legal Requirement for CHP in Accomack?

[Grapeshot]

I'm not so sure about that one. I think that might be...... 'a matta uh in-ter-pra-tat-tion...' :uhoh:

It appears that the code requires the Clerk to ISSUE the permit via US Mail, but the code doesn't say they must accept the application via USPS until you get to the section that specifically discusses renewals.

Here are the sections that I found relating to USPS. Maybe I'm missing something??

The absence of a law defaults in favor of the people.

No law against OC = legal to OC. No law against mailing original application = legal.

Not so with municipalities/Clerk - particularly having anything to do with guns. The Clerk must follow state law, is restricted from creating such both by statute and Dillon Rule.

My neighbor fills out and application, has it notorized by his friendly banker with seal, mails it in (return receipt requested?) and the Clerk is obligated to process it - no if, and or but about it.

 

[Blk97F150]

The absence of a law defaults in favor of the people.

No law against OC = legal to OC. No law against mailing original application = legal.

Not so with municipalities/Clerk - particularly having anything to do with guns. The Clerk must follow state law, is restricted from creating such both by statute and Dillon Rule.

My neighbor fills out and application, has it notorized by his friendly banker with seal, mails it in (return receipt requested?) and the Clerk is obligated to process it - no if, and or but about it.

I agree with you.... but I can also see how a Clerk might 'interpret' the code to mean that they do not have to accept mailed in applications.


For All: I am still offering to pay $20 towards the fee of a new CHP for a resident of Accomack, provided they only follow the Code of VA during the process, and not submit to 'additional requests' by the Clerk. I believe another member here was willing to put up another $20 as well.

 

[marshaul]

-----------------------------------------
From : SHCooper@courts.state.va.us
To : blk97f150
Subject : Re: Accomack County Concealed Handgun Permit
Date : Mon, Jul 08, 2013 02:21 PM

I assume that you have an issue with having photos on handgun permits. This service is provided in response customers requests for a more durable card. The photo serves as an additional form of ID. My response to your question concerning statutory authorization for the photo would ask if there is any statutory prohibition.

Samuel H. Cooper, Jr.

Umm, yeah. It's right there in the code.

A response such as this deserves a punitive reaction.

 

[marshaul]

Email response from Samuel H. Cooper, Jr, Accomack Clerk of Court:


This service is provided in response customers requests for a more durable card.

This is the part I find most annoying (although predictable).

People love their ridiculous, slavish permission slips. They salivate over them. They feel "elite" when they receive one. Driver's licenses, occupational licenses, CHPs: take your pick.

A friend of mine received his CHP and remarked on his "disappointment" at how simple they are compared to a DL.

My biggest problem with this extralegal action is that it encourages this meme, which really instead ought to be subject to the most stringent social censure. The nicer, shinier, and more "exclusive" a permit, the harder those who possess it will fight to keep the licensure in place (or at least the less they will care to eliminate said licensure).

People like to feel special, and the allowing factor of all licensure is that it manipulatively plays off of this tendency. (Frankly, it's disgusting. I consider those who dream up licenses to be among the lowest form of life imaginable.)

The next time someone shows me one of their puerile, farcical permission slips, I'm going to show them mine:

[video=youtube;LzEOHNmfa_0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzEOHNmfa_0[/video]

 

[Blk97F150]

It appears that Mr Samuel H. Cooper Jr, the Accomack Clerk of Court, as decided to not respond to me any further. I have not received any reply from my last couple emails requesting an update. :uhoh: Wolf_shadow, have you had any better success?

It also appears, that he has modified the Accomack County webpage regarding Concealed Handgun Permits to include a sample photo of his 'picture CHP'. Interestingly enough, not only is he illegally requesting 'additional information' from CHP applicants..... he is putting their SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER on the picture permit.

The website still states that an applicant must apply in person as well.

http://www.co.accomack.va.us/govern...rk-of-circuit-court/concealed-handgun-permits

Concealed Handgun Permits

Applications for Concealed Handgun permits are available from the Clerk's Office or by clicking here.

First time applications must be presented in person at the Clerk’s Office. Renewal applications may be submitted by mail. The application fee is $15.00.

Additionally, you may purchase the plastic data card which includes your photo for an additional cost of $20.00. This card is an excellent alternative to the standard paper card and will serve as an additional form of identification.

Sample Concealed Handgun Permit Data Card

 

[skidmark]

Aha!

Now we have a bit more of the story. The Clerk is selling a "Concealed Handgun Permit data card."

It is not a CHP (even though it says so across the top). It's a CCW Badge that you wear in your wallet instead of on your belt.

Hand that to some cop instead of the cardboard CHP and watch them fill out a summons form for you to show up in court. Bring it to court without the cardboard CHP and watch the judge explain to you tat had you brought the cardboard CHP yopu would just be paying the civil fine as opposed to being convicted of a crime that will be grounds for having the Clerk revoke your CHP.

And then the rodeo begins when someone whines that the Clerk "said it was as good as a CHP."

Personally I'd prefer to have a Testee Copy (with embossed seal) of the order approving my application for a CHP if for some reason I did not have the actual cardboard CHP.

As for the data card serving as "an additional form of identification" - not so sure about that. http://www.dmv.state.va.us/drivers/#id/get_id.asp

Required Documents

If you are applying for an ID card for the first time and do not hold a valid Virginia driver's license, each time you apply for the ID card, you will be required to show two proofs of identity (only one primary document if you are under age 19), one proof of legal presence and one proof of Virginia residency. You will be required to show these required documents on each return visit until your ID card is issued.

That's four (4) separate items.

http://travel.state.gov/passport/get/first/first_830.html

For a passport you only need proof of citizenship and one (1) ID document.

I can't find anything in the Va Code allowing a Clerk of the Circuit Court to issue any sort of ID document. Wonder what the Executive Secretary of the Virginia Supreme Court would have to say about the Clerk exceeding their constitutional grant of authority.

stay safe.

 

[Grapeshot]

--snipped--

I can't find anything in the Va Code allowing a Clerk of the Circuit Court to issue any sort of ID document. Wonder what the Executive Secretary of the Virginia Supreme Court would have to say about the Clerk exceeding their constitutional grant of authority.
stay safe.

Please, please someone that has been directly involved with this contact the Executive Secretary of the Virginia Supreme Court and file a formal compliant - include all problems. See this as being much faster and decidedly cheaper that filing a Writ of Mandamus.

Clerks of Court are not above the law.

 

[riverrat10k]

snip

People like to feel special, and the allowing factor of all licensure is that it manipulatively plays off of this tendency. (Frankly, it's disgusting. I consider those who dream up licenses to be among the lowest form of life imaginable.)

snip
[video=youtube;LzEOHNmfa_0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzEOHNmfa_0[/video]

Gracious, Marshaul, dare I say you are sounding more and more like Peter Nap? LOL:monkey

 

[ProShooter]

Cute, but it does not look like " a uniform style prescribed by the Department of State Police." to me.

 

[Grapeshot]

--snipped--
Cute, but it does not look like " a uniform style prescribed by the Department of State Police." to me.

????

 

[Esanders2008]

????

I think he is talking about the requirement in the code for all CHPs to be of a uniform style prescribed by the Dept. of State Police, and how this card isn't.

 

[Grapeshot]

I think he is talking about the requirement in the code for all CHPs to be of a uniform style prescribed by the Dept. of State Police, and how this card isn't.

But of course :banghead:

 

[marshaul]

Cute, but it does not look like " a uniform style prescribed by the Department of State Police." to me.

That card's way too pretty. This needs to be stopped.

 

[2a4all]

Cute, but it does not look like " a uniform style prescribed by the Department of State Police." to me.

It also contains more info than required: DL#, SSN, Race, and no issuing court/judge/clerk signature!

 

[skidmark]

....

Cute, but it does not look like " a uniform style prescribed by the Department of State Police." to me.

But it's not a CHP, as was noted by someone in post #66 above.

It's a Concealed Handgun Permit Data Card - whatever the heck that is. Says so right there on the web site:

Government » Constitutional Officers » Clerk of Circuit Court

Concealed Handgun Permits

....

Applications for Concealed Handgun permits are available from the Clerk's Office or by clicking here.

First time applications must be presented in person at the Clerk’s Office. Renewal applications may be submitted by mail. The application fee is $15.00.

Additionally, you may purchase the plastic data card which includes your photo for an additional cost of $20.00. This card is an excellent alternative to the standard paper card and will serve as an additional form of identification.


Sample Concealed Handgun Permit Data Card

chp - Copy
....

So, like that guy said up in post #66, if you show that Data Card to a cop instead of a CHP you ought to expect to receive a summons that will require yu to go to court and show the GDC judge you really do possess a valid CHP. Maybe while the judge is disciussing your intellectual powers he might begin inquiring as to what the Circuit Court Clerk was doing when they dreamed that up. (Not sure it would be woth paying court costs to see if the judge does that or not.)

stay safe.

(Yes, I am feeling like chopped liver. Thank you for asking.)

 

[peter nap]

It would be interesting for someone that gets one of these, to go to the Clerk and demand a temporary permit after 45 days.

 

[Blk97F150]

Another email to the Clerk of Court:



From :blk97f150
To : SHCooper@courts.state.va.us
Cc : president@vcdl.org
Subject : Re: Fw: Re: Accomack County Concealed Handgun Permit
Date : Mon, Jul 22, 2013 07:07 PM

Mr Cooper, I am still awaiting a response to the items mentioned in my original email.

In addition, I would like to bring the following section of the Code of Virginia to your attention.

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+2.2-3808

§ 2.2-3808. Collection, disclosure, or display of social security number.

A. It shall be unlawful for any agency to:

1. Require an individual to disclose or furnish his social security number not previously disclosed or furnished, for any purpose in connection with any activity, or to refuse any service, privilege, or right to an individual wholly or partly because the individual does not disclose or furnish such number, unless the disclosure or furnishing of such number is specifically required by state law in effect prior to January 1, 1975, or is specifically authorized or required by federal law; or

2. Collect from an individual his social security number or any portion thereof unless the collection of such number is (i) authorized or required by state or federal law and (ii) essential for the performance of that agency's duties. Nothing in this subdivision shall be construed to prohibit the collection of a social security number for the sole purpose of complying with the Virginia Debt Collection Act (§ 2.2-4800 et seq.) or the Setoff Debt Collection Act (§ 58.1-520 et seq.).

B. Agency-issued identification cards, student identification cards, or license certificates issued or replaced on or after July 1, 2003, shall not display an individual's entire social security number except as provided in § 46.2-703.

C. Any agency-issued identification card, student identification card, or license certificate that was issued prior to July 1, 2003, and that displays an individual's entire social security number shall be replaced no later than July 1, 2006, except that voter registration cards issued with a social security number and not previously replaced shall be replaced no later than the December 31st following the completion by the state and all localities of the decennial redistricting following the 2010 census. This subsection shall not apply to (i) driver's licenses and special identification cards issued by the Department of Motor Vehicles pursuant to Chapter 3 (§ 46.2-300 et seq.) of Title 46.2 and (ii) road tax registrations issued pursuant to § 46.2-703.

D. No agency, as defined in § 42.1-77, shall send or deliver or cause to be sent or delivered, any letter, envelope, or package that displays a social security number on the face of the mailing envelope or package or from which a social security number is visible, whether on the outside or inside of the mailing envelope or package.

E. The provisions of subsections A and C shall not be applicable to licenses issued by the State Corporation Commission's Bureau of Insurance until such time as a national insurance producer identification number has been created and implemented in all states. Commencing with the date of such implementation, the licenses issued by the State Corporation Commission's Bureau of Insurance shall be issued in compliance with subsection A of this section. Further, all licenses issued prior to the date of such implementation shall be replaced no later than 12 months following the date of such implementation.

As evidenced by the recent information added to your website (linked below)... displaying Social Security Numbers on your 'Concealed Handgun Permit Data Card' is a violation of the Code of Virginia.

http://www.co.accomack.va.us/govern...rk-of-circuit-court/concealed-handgun-permits

Again I request that you please bring the process for the Accomack County Concealed Handgun Permit into compliance with all sections of the Code of Virginia.

Thank you for your prompt attention to this matter.

Mike xxx

 

[Citizen]

Email response from Samuel H. Cooper, Jr, Accomack Clerk of Court

I have not responded yet. My thought is to reply back and point out the section in the Code of Virginia that prohibits additional information not specifically authorized.

I'm open to suggestions.....

-----------------------------------------
From : SHCooper@courts.state.va.us
To : blk97f150
Subject : Re: Accomack County Concealed Handgun Permit
Date : Mon, Jul 08, 2013 02:21 PM

I assume that you have an issue with having photos on handgun permits. This service is provided in response customers requests for a more durable card. The photo serves as an additional form of ID. My response to your question concerning statutory authorization for the photo would ask if there is any statutory prohibition.

Samuel H. Cooper, Jr.

Proper response: "You only have the authority expressly granted by statute." Provide cites to pre-emption, Dillon Rule, 18.2-308, etc.

 

[Blk97F150]

Proper response: "You only have the authority expressly granted by statute." Provide cites to pre-emption, Dillon Rule, 18.2-308, etc.

I assume that you are just catching up on older posts. I have replied to him several times now and provided him with various Code's that he is in violation of. it appears that he has taken the approach of ignoring my emails. I'm working on a couple other avenues... :uhoh:

I think Wolf Shadow is also working on some things as well (he is local, so he might have more resources and connections)

 

[Citizen]

I assume that you are just catching up on older posts. I have replied to him several times now and provided him with various Code's that he is in violation of. it appears that he has taken the approach of ignoring my emails. I'm working on a couple other avenues... :uhoh:

I think Wolf Shadow is also working on some things as well (he is local, so he might have more resources and connections)

Not so much. Merely applying the obvious underlying principle of this here constitutional republic--government's only got the authority it was delegated.