Fatal shooting of officer leaves neighborhood numb. Portlock, CHESAPEAKEm The Virginian-Pilot

[LEO 229]

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WhiteFeather wrote:

But all of the arguments that are put up againstdrugs are copy and pastearguments from gun control or any control for that matter.

If it stops just one kid from messing with drugs.. we have a success.

If just one kid is spared from gun violence than we have done our job. -Brady Campaign.

http://www.bradycampaign.org/

If we can stop one more person from driving under the influence.

http://www.madd.org/

If we reduce just a fraction of our carbon foot print we have success.

http://www.carbonfootprint.com/

Man has always felt that he or she has a superior panoz on how to live life the best.

It just goes to show that you can make a change no matter how small.

Imagine if your child is that one kid that stays off drugs and becomes someone successful versus a drug addicted person going nowhere in life.


It has nothing to do with being superior or pushing views onto others. Drunk Drivers kill other, Drugs destroy the lives of others. Guns handled carelessly kill people needlessly too.

This all seems to be geared toward a better life for all.

 

[Doug Huffman]

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Ah yes, the greater good for the greater number, where have we heard that before? It is 'utilitarianism' and embraced by Scientology and Communism alike, petty tyrants all. Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety.

 

[Tomahawk]

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tarzan1888 wrote:

I am very tired of people talking about immoral warrants the moral shooting of a police officerand at the same time espousing things such as drug use and every other immoral and improper act that they can think of.

Who's espousing drug use? If I do not think it should be illegal to jump in a lake, is that the same thing as espousing jumping into lakes?


Yes, it is necessary to stop drug use, and to do so it is necessary to kick in non-violent people's doors at 3 in the morning. And we all know about necessity.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
William Pitt

 

[tarzan1888]

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Tomahawk wrote:

tarzan1888 wrote:

I am very tired of people talking about immoral warrants the moral shooting of a police officer and at the same time espousing things such as drug use and every other immoral and improper act that they can think of.

Who's espousing drug use? If I do not think it should be illegal to jump in a lake, is that the same thing as espousing jumping into lakes?

 
Yes, it is necessary to stop drug use, and to do so it is necessary to kick in non-violent people's doors at 3 in the morning. And we all know about necessity.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
William Pitt

 

If you will note I have said such things as  "Choice and accountability".   I have said that I think some things are wrong acording to a higher law that we are all subject to.

I attempt to rule myself and expect all others to do like wise.  

I have called for no new laws from man.

I am not an advocate of new laws, BUT I am an advocate of swift and sure punishment.

We raised 5 children and in the middle of all that my wife would often complain that the kids would mind me much better than they did her. To top that off she complained that I almost never had to get after them.

I told her why this was and she didn't like it.

From me they got sure and swift punishment. From her it was hit and miss. They were willing to take their chances with her, but not with me.

That is why carrying a gun works and that is why we need swift and sure punishment.

Our court system now is terriable. If we started again to hang "Horse thieves and Cattle thieves" we would get their attention.
 

Tarzan

 

[Tomahawk]

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Well, tarzan, earlier you said something to the effect of "live with the consoequences of your choices". I'd have to say that that is my position exactly. I'm not sure what we're arguing over. I don't believe in laws that tell you what chemicals to put in your body, so long as you understand that your heroin addiction is your problem, and not everybody else's. Scratching my head over what we disagree over.

 

[LEO 229]

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And I would agree.... you can drink, smoke, and do drugs all you like...

But I do not want to have to see you do it and do not want kids to be exposed to it so they can pick up the bad habit.

I also do not want someone stealing from me to get their fix.

 

[Thundar]

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LEO 229 wrote:

You have taken a thread about a police shooting and turned it into a legalization of drugs.

You nail every damn dealer or person manufacturing the illegal drugs. This includes the little puss bag growing plants in his house.

If you do not want the police kicking in your door... be sure not to grow pot in your house and show your friends.

Just because they did not find the plants in this case does not mean he did not grow them. He openly admitted that he does smoke pot.

LEO 229,

I hate drugs. I have never tried any drugs or even smoked a cigarette. I do drink an occasional cup of coffee and have a glass of wine on a special occasion.

I thought that the drug legalization discussion was off topic. That is what I said two pages ago. After others disagreed with me I tried to compare federal gun regulation to federal drug regulation, trying to keep it somewhat topical.

About six pages ago I advocated for the death penalty for those that push crack, cocaine, crystal meth, etc to kids.

When you say "If you do not want the police kicking in your door... be sure not to grow pot in your house and show your friends" you are just showing a probable cause = use high risk violent home invasion mentality. That mentality by the Chesapeake P.D., IMHO,contributed to the death of Detective Shivers.

I really hope that you think about what you are advocating for police policy. It is one thing to advocate a "get tough" on crime policy (including drugs), but it is quite another for you to advocate a government sanctioned "get violent" (if you don't want police kicking in your door) policy.

For all, I prefer open discussions and would like LEO 229 to defend his kick in the door comment. Please, for those itching for immature flame wars: Do not make comparisons of LEO 229 and/or police to Nazi storm troopers and do not makegeneralized statements that will be interpreted assaying something inappropriate about Detective Shivers - either route will lead to the locking of this thread.

 

[Venator]

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tarzan1888 wrote:

Venator wrote:

TheApostle wrote:

Back to the thread. Marijuana = illegal. Search warrant obtained by CPD = legal. The 4th amendment was not violated, and the call for the US to legalize drugs will do nothing but open Pandora's box for all kinds of mayhem and destruction.

How?Just more anti drug propaganda.

An attack on a fellow geologist, well I never!

You really can't be as uninformed about the anti-drug propaganda. Of course there would be laws against drug use if involved in harm to others. Just as they have laws against Booze, etc.. Pilots that fly high should be disciplined, just as they are now. And of course a business can have a policy against drug use while on the clock...oh like they donow. People under the age of 18 should not have access to drugsloke cigarettes. Remember all the money that would be spent on enforcement and incarceration would be put to use on rehab and education,education on the down side of using drugs and trainingfor the job market. If drugs were like alcohol and legal you wouldn't have people running or harming LOE's to avoid a life sentence. Just of few of the benefits of legalized drug use.

I don't use illegal drugs never have and at my age probably never will, but the cost to society as a whole makes this a hot button issue to me.

 

[Mordis]

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Leo229, my question is, if your being tasered, how in the name of god can you even move your hands?? I have seen the videos and what not of people being tasered, they loose almost total control of there body. According to the article about hale, he was tasered nearly immediately after being ordered to raise his hands, thusly not giving him a chance.

He was unjustly tasered, he should have been given a chance to remove his hands, but in the cops urge to finaly use his taser didnt give him one. How can you defend this action when clearly he was not given any sort of chance to comply at all?? No I dont condone his participation in a motorcycle gang, but unless the police have direct conclusive evidence that he himself was making/selling dope, they had no right to kill him.

Now this is a scary situation. Lumping all motorcycle clubs into the same mix as the gangs. I plan on buying my first motorcycle with in the next few years and joining a club. Looks like I now have to rethink the joining a club bit, seeing as it may get me killed when the police mistakenly label me as a criminal.



LEO 229 wrote:

jack wrote:

The article didn't say anything about a flash bang being deployed, so I think explosions are out. Additionally they were plain clothes officers serving a no knock warrant, get real.

Home invasions have occurred where the criminals were wearing clothing that said police, were yelling "police open up" and flashing badges.

How many cases of crazies making traffic stops with flashing lights have occurred recently. One case had the impersonator using a SUV with grill lights installed.

I bet the guy walks,especially if therewere no drugs foundin he home.

First off, I never identified that the manner of entry I said was used at that house. This is "traditionally" how it is accomplished. I have no idea what was done in that situation where the officer was murdered by the bad guy. I suggest you read things a little more slowly.

And for your comments about cops killing innocent people.....

That soldier was a member of an outlaw motorcycle gang!

http://lippard.blogspot.com/2007/03/returned-soldier-killed-by-police-in.html

"Since its inception, Pagans has produced and distributed methamphetamine; it now distributes cocaine as well. Pagans members have also committed murders, vehicle thefts, black market firearms violations, and extortion."

He refused to remove his hands and show them to the police The police tasered him and tried to get his left hand out but failed. Not knowing what he had in that hand and his refusal to show it caused the police to take further action.

It was his decision to fail to comply and show his hands. He was later found to be in possession of some mace and a switchblade.

Is is sad that he had to be shot but he had to be taken seriously as a threat since he was a member of a gang. Gang members can and do kill the police. There are people on this board that talk about killing police and they are not even gang members.

 

[tarzan1888]

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Tomahawk wrote:

Well, tarzan, earlier you said something to the effect of "live with the consoequences of your choices". I'd have to say that that is my position exactly. I'm not sure what we're arguing over.........

I never thought that we were arguing....just sharing ideas. It is good when people can agree on things, and if people can share differing opinions in an open and civil manner that is good to. At the same time time, when we do that, we often learn that we have much in common, in our core values.

As far as the laws of the land I personally think that if I follow the laws of God I don't need to worry about the laws of the land. I do take note of my speed on the road, when I driveand where I do and I don't carry my gun, because I don't want to lose my right to carry or my privilege to drive, but my own personal set of laws being, in general,much more strict than those offered by the state, I really don't worry about state or federal laws to much.

I do worry about right and wrong and am not afraid to speak my mind on that subject.

I don't like bad laws, and I don't mind good ones, as they help us live better, but in general I think we have more federal, state and local laws than we need.

I don't think of things in the sense on this temporary mortal existence, but rather in an eternal realm. When I say we must live with the consequences of our choices, I mean not only live with them in this life, but also the life to come. The punishment I fear is not of this world.

I am aware of the needs of others and in deference to those needs I would like speedy and sure punishment, for the evil doer,by those in power to govern,where ever we live, in this life, as I think that this would help deter others from harming those around them, or those who love them.

On "good laws", I will say this. The evil doer will ignore laws, good or bad, the good of the Earth will obey the law, but when it comes to those who are young or impressionable, the good law may help them make the right choice, when others are trying to influence them to do evil.

Well so much for my treatise on good and evil.



Tarzan

 

[LEO 229]

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Mordis wrote:

Leo229, my question is, if your being tasered, how in the name of god can you even move your hands?? I have seen the videos and what not of people being tasered, they loose almost total control of there body. According to the article about hale, he was tasered nearly immediately after being ordered to raise his hands, thusly not giving him a chance.

He was unjustly tasered, he should have been given a chance to remove his hands, but in the cops urge to finaly use his taser didnt give him one. How can you defend this action when clearly he was not given any sort of chance to comply at all?? No I dont condone his participation in a motorcycle gang, but unless the police have direct conclusive evidence that he himself was making/selling dope, they had no right to kill him.

Now this is a scary situation. Lumping all motorcycle clubs into the same mix as the gangs. I plan on buying my first motorcycle with in the next few years and joining a club. Looks like I now have to rethink the joining a club bit, seeing as it may get me killed when the police mistakenly label me as a criminal.

I have not seen the video... I know that immediately after the taser stops operating you can move your hands.It would be prudent to comply immediately after unless you wanted to get shocked again.

The details on this event are unknown to me so I cannot comment.

Not all motorcycle gangs are bad. It is a known fact that the Hell's Angels and the Pagans are outlaw motorcycle gangs. I hope your not going to say they are good, God fearing, honest, loving people.... they are a criminal organisation and this is a fact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagans_MC

 

[Beau]

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LEO 229 wrote:

I have not seen the video... I know that immediately after the taser stops operating you can move your hands.It would be prudent to comply immediately after unless you wanted to get shocked again.

You KNOW that immediately after the taser stops you can move your hands.

How were you imparted with this wonderful knowledge?

I was under the impression that the human body can react different ways to different forms of stimuli and that not all people react the same.

I'm sure the medical community would love for you to share this information with them. I'm sure they will want to bestow an award and name a building in your honor.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taser
[edit] Tests
On Tuesday, 5 July 2005 Michael Todd, Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police, England, let himself be shot in the back with a taser, to demonstrate his confidence that tasers can be used safely. This was videoed, and the video was released to the BBC on 17 May 2007. He was wearing a shirt and no jacket. When tased, he fell forward onto his chest on the ground, and (he said afterwards) the shock made him helpless; but, soon after, he recovered completely.[26][/suP][27][/suP][28][/suP]

Although tests on police and military volunteers have shown tasers to function appropriately on a healthy, calm individual in a relaxed and controlled environment, the real-life target of a taser is, if not mentally or physically unsound, in a state of high stress and in the midst of a confrontation.[15][/suP] According to the UK’s Defence Scientific Advisory Council’s subcommittee on the Medical Implications of Less-lethal Weapons (DoMILL), "The possibility that other factors such as illicit drug intoxication, alcohol abuse, pre-existing heart disease, and cardioactive therapeutic drugs may modify the threshold for generation of cardiac arrhythmias cannot be excluded.” In addition, taser experiments “do not take into account real life use of tasers by law enforcement agencies, such as repeated or prolonged shocks and the use of restraints". [29][/suP]

Police officers in at least five US states have filed lawsuits against TASER International claiming they suffered serious injuries after being shocked with the device during training classes. [30][/suP]

 

[longwatch]

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Well this one is getting to tangental and pretty much run its course, I think there are some good topics that deserve their own threads but the thread is OT now.
Closed.