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First not so nice encounter

gripping hand

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2014
Messages
14
Location
Central MS
I put my two cents in here.

We live in a world FULL of guns. Cops wear them openly. Military wears them openly. The movie industry would not exist without guns. Video games would be limited to NFL and fifa.

We live in a world where people wait and CAMP at the apple store to get the latest iphone. Where people will stay up all night on black Friday to get a foot massager they don't even want because it's on sale. We have bullet bikes, sky diving, diesel trucks and prius cars; transfat soaked chicken wings and mercury dosed tuna fish. Gambling, white water rafting, hunting and gay marriage.

There are literally MILLIONS of things (MANY that are "dangerous" or would make MANY people "uncomfortable ") that we FLOCK to do simply because we WANT to.

But when it comes to something as important as personal defense and human/constitutional right, we have to conform to what other people deem that we "need" or should make them feel a certain way?

To those people, gtfo with that hipocrisy.

I am 6'5" 250 lbs and know how to handle myself, if I wanted to just snap and go on a killing spree, it wouldn't take a gun to do it. What's next, it's illegal to be physically imposing or know martial arts?

(I would never do the above, obviously)

just 20 years ago, gays made everyone and their dog uncomfortable. Now being gay comes with a cool card and a status symbol.

Peoples "feelings" may change year to year. But the more people see firearms as normal parts of self defense, the more they don't mind. Go down to a frontsight class if you don't believe me.
Thanks dazzle,
Okay, I'm not getting how people doing what they want to do equates with a visible firearm making someone else uncomfortable, but I appreciate your willingness to engage on the subject.

How long have you OC and what drove the decision? Is CC an option you rejected? What changes have you had to make in your daily interactions to accommodate OC?
 
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J_dazzle23

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2013
Messages
643
Okay, I'm not getting how people doing what they want to do equates with a visible firearm making someone else uncomfortable, but I appreciate your willingness to engage on the subject.

How long have you OC and what drove the decision? Is CC an option you rejected? What changes have you had to make in your daily interactions to accommodate OC?
I have OC on and off for 4 years. Sometimes I conceal, sometimes I OC. My decision making process is twofold. I think there are tactical benefits to both, with the nod probably going to OC.

If I want comfort, I OC. If I want to go somewhere that will either kick me out, or will be socially unprofessional, I Wil cc. (Like why you don't wear white to a wedding, or camouflage to church)

*no offense if you are duck dynasty lol

Mostly, because in the 2 states I have lived in, I rarely go a day without seeing someone open carrying. It's not really that odd where I'm from. Wife with me or not, I carry primarily how I deem Comfortable and what is within the law in my area.

Social mores that are built on fantasy realities of guns equating to violence don't even hit the radar on things I worry about, because they are so fluid. Open carry in cali and everyone flips their sh*t, but head over to bozeman montana or southern utah and all I get is a high five from time to time.

Worrying if others are scared about oc is like buying an iPhone because all bombs in movies are detonated by a galaxy s5, imo.

Daily interactions....like I said, a few high fives....but believe it or not, people that don't carry are usually so deep into Condition white that they probably wouldn't notice if I strapped a dirty Harry on each hip. Seriously.
 

gripping hand

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2014
Messages
14
Location
Central MS
Thanks dazzle,
Maybe it's because OC is such a recent phenomenon here, it gets a lot of attention. It certainly seems to have affected the number of new "no weapons" signs popping up.

Which brings me to another question. In areas where OC is a fairly recent occurrence, has anyone noticed a decrease in signage forbidding the practice as people get used to the idea?
 

77zach

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2007
Messages
2,913
Location
Marion County, FL
Thanks dazzle,
Maybe it's because OC is such a recent phenomenon here, it gets a lot of attention. It certainly seems to have affected the number of new "no weapons" signs popping up.

Which brings me to another question. In areas where OC is a fairly recent occurrence, has anyone noticed a decrease in signage forbidding the practice as people get used to the idea?
I've spent a lot of time in Virginia and have family there. OC seems to have helped the state become more pro gun. At one point OC was legal in restaurants that serve alcohol but CC was illegal, the silliness of this situation was evident to all and now both are legal.

I think OC is better from a tactical point of view (though I can imagine situations where CC would be better) but my opinion is irrelevant. All we want is the government off our backs so that it respects our civil rights, and if a few businesses (and they are few) want to be stupid, that's their problem. Whenever I see a no gun sign I either ignore it and CC or don't do business there.
 

gripping hand

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2014
Messages
14
Location
Central MS
Thank you all for your posts.
Though I may have been a little sharp at first I came here to learn more about OC and the mindset and attitude of it's proponents. I've learned a little from each post and believe I have a better understanding of the issues and people involved. And though I'm not swayed to your viewpoint, that's ok. There's enough room under the tent for all of us.
In particular, I'm grateful to those who were willing to engage in a dialogue and answer my newbie questions.
To those less forthcoming: lighten up. If your position can't stand a little examination and discussion, you might be in a cult.
Thanks again and y'all take care.
 

Dario

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2013
Messages
204
Location
Larimer County, CO
gripping hand;2103775 No one on this site seems willing to take responsibility for the discomfort some people feel when confronted with a stranger carrying a gun. [/QUOTE said:
Perhaps educating people that it is an interaction with an armed citizen, not a "confrontation" is a good start.
 

JamesCanby

Activist Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Messages
1,480
Location
Alexandria, VA at www.NoVA-MDSelfDefense.com
gripping hand;2103775 No one on this site seems willing to take responsibility for the discomfort some people feel when confronted with a stranger carrying a gun. [/QUOTE said:
So ... you seem to be implying that we are responsible for other people's fears or reactions.

Sorry, but if each of us lived our lives in such a way as to prevent offending everyone and anyone else in the world, we would be unable to move or speak.

If someone's actions or manner of dress or lifestyle "offends" me, I have no thoughts of getting THEM to modify THEIR behavior. I simply exclude them from my life.

Bottom line is, I am not responsible for other people's fears, phobias or "discomfort" and I will not change my life to assuage their "feelings."
 
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marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,200
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Which brings me to another question. In areas where OC is a fairly recent occurrence, has anyone noticed a decrease in signage forbidding the practice as people get used to the idea?
I see very little signage one way or the other. The overwhelming majority of places I frequent are happy to take my money and business.

You can see how this is a loaded question, akin to "have you stopped beating your wife yet?".

I have neither seen an increase nor a decrease, because the simple fact is I only know of a handful of prohibitive places and I frequent none of them.

No one on this site seems willing to take responsibility for the discomfort some people feel when confronted with a stranger carrying a gun.
That's because:

1. This discomfort is uncommon.

2. It really, seriously, isn't our responsibility.

Keep in mind I'm not comparing you to a racist, only your argument to one he might make:

RacistGuy on Bodybuilding.com said:
No one on this site seems willing to take responsibility for the discomfort some people feel when confronted with a huge, muscular black man.
How is your question substantially any different from the racist's?

If it's not different, then why should I concern myself with the racist? And if I shouldn't concern myself with him, then why should I concern myself with the minority who are hoplophobes?

Does this community address appropriate security holsters and belts? What about retention training?
Holsters, yes. Rentention training, perhaps, is something the forum talks about in the abstract too much. I know I personally would like to practice it more.

How do you respond to the idea that the proliferation of "no firearms" signs is a result of more OC? And how do we fix it?
This is another loaded question. As I said, I do agree that OCing ARs into Kroger is counterproductive. So the solution to that is to not carry ARs into Kroger, discourage our friends and acquaintances from doing so, and shun those who do so anyway.

But I don't agree at all that the responsible, normal carry of holstered handguns is at all counterproductive. As I said, it wasn't until "Starbucks appreciation days!!!1!" with shotguns and ARs uselessly carried into Starbucks (against the company's desire for no further publicity) that they started asking people not to bring guns.

The OC of handguns simply doesn't generate the negative attention you constantly presuppose it does.

Sir, I have been responding to you in good faith, but at this point I feel that we're speaking at cross-purposes. I've already explained before that, in almost all of our experiences, OC of handguns doesn't generate negative reactions. And yet, without providing a shred of evidence to refute my empirical claim, you ask loaded questions which depend on a presupposition that OC does, in fact, tend to generate negative responses.


If these questions are too hard or embarrassing for you, just say so and I'll look for a less defensive forum where people are willing to share and discuss issues that affect all of us.
I won't defend the behavior of my fellow forum members other than to remind you that we get a lot of genuine trolls spewing poorly-thought-out crap from James Yeager's latest youtube video (or whatever). Even though you presented yourself as posting in good faith, and I granted you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you can see for the reason I articulated above why others have not granted you that same benefit.

I will, however, point out that you haven't offered a single supported rebuttal to any of the clearly articulated and supported points I made earlier. You have, instead, continued to goad and prod the forum with bare assertions and loaded questions. Or at least, that's how it looks from here.

If your goal really is understanding, then I suggest you engage in dialectic with someone who is willing (I was, and might be again). That would entail, however, attempting to address and rebut the arguments with which you've been presented, and responding to counter-rebuttals in equally good faith.
 
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Bernymac

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2013
Messages
415
Location
Las Vegas
Thank you all for your posts.
Though I may have been a little sharp at first I came here to learn more about OC and the mindset and attitude of it's proponents. I've learned a little from each post and believe I have a better understanding of the issues and people involved. And though I'm not swayed to your viewpoint, that's ok. There's enough room under the tent for all of us.
In particular, I'm grateful to those who were willing to engage in a dialogue and answer my newbie questions.
To those less forthcoming: lighten up. If your position can't stand a little examination and discussion, you might be in a cult.Thanks again and y'all take care.
Oh look the pot meets kettle.
Bless your little heart!
 
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Kopis

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
674
Location
Nashville, TN
Gripping Hand... I'm fairly new to OC myself. I started it shortly after joining this site last year. Man, i was nervous as sh!t the first time! I took my wife shopping lol rationalizing that i would appear less threatening when shopping with her. We went to sams club, lowes and kroger that evening...... Guess what happened?... NOTHING! I think only one or two people even remotely appeared to notice.

I too have heard all the arguments against OC but none make sense when you rationalize them. Why do banks and liquor stores all hire guards that OC?

Awhile back, i was at a gas station late at night after a movie. Two less than reputable guys approached me and started to say "what's up bro" or something that they use to let you closer to them to converse. I simply set my hand on top of my glock and said, "ah nothing guys, just filling up"... they immediately whispered to each other and made a motion to another guy pacing behind me by the street. Now, i dont know what their intentions were that night for sure, but i do think they were nefarious. Now suppose the same thing had happened but i was CCing... How do you think it would've ended?

I encourage you to try OC three times and see how it goes. I think you'll be surprised how few people notice. I also highly recommend practicing the Tueller drill (attacker w/ weapon within 21' can reach you before you can draw and defend yourself) with a friend while OCing and CCing. There are a few ways to run the drill...
1. have two targets 42' apart, you need two people for this. You both stand in the middle back to back, your friend runs at the other target away from you with a knife/bat while you draw from OC and CC and attempt to hit the target before he makes it to the opposite target.
2. You can make a target on wheels and have a friend pull it towards you while you draw and shoot.
 

The Truth

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2014
Messages
1,971
Location
Henrico
No one on this site seems willing to take responsibility for the discomfort some people feel when confronted with a stranger carrying a gun. The only comments I've seen that addressed it directly were along the lines of "it's your problem, deal with it" and the guy who wanted to send a letter to the store manager when a sales clerk alerted other customers to his OC.
I think one of the best parallels for this idea is that of homosexuals and public display of affection. Are homosexual couples responsible for making people uncomfortable in this manner? If so, do you think it's fair to be able to ask homosexuals to leave a specific place of business because "people are uncomfortable with the idea?" I don't. It's not the couple's fault that people are homophobic. How could they possibly be held accountable for how others feel, and why should they care? It is their lifestyle, and it is their right. That's my belief anyway. If it makes me uncomfortable, I do not have a right to ask them to leave, but I do have a right to leave.

I've spent a lot of time in Virginia and have family there. OC seems to have helped the state become more pro gun. At one point OC was legal in restaurants that serve alcohol but CC was illegal, the silliness of this situation was evident to all and now both are legal.
It's still legal for someone to OC and have an alcoholic beverage as long as they are under the legal limit. It is illegal to CC and drink an alcoholic beverage - at all in VA.

Do you have a cite for that law or do you know the code number? Just curious.
 

wrightme

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2008
Messages
5,575
Location
Fallon, Nevada, USA
If I CC how would they know?

No offense, but that is kinda the point of CC.
Hide the right, expect to have it lost.

A clear road to acceptance, is openly exercising the right.

Thanks dazzle,
Okay, I'm not getting how people doing what they want to do equates with a visible firearm making someone else uncomfortable, but I appreciate your willingness to engage on the subject.

How long have you OC and what drove the decision? Is CC an option you rejected? What changes have you had to make in your daily interactions to accommodate OC?
Why do you see a difficulty if someone else feels uncomfortable when seeing an armed citizen?

With only a little forethought, I manage to have both.

Thank you for all your sacrifices.
For CC, are you required to get a permit? Or can you do it legally without processing paperwork for a license?
 
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OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,325
Location
White Oak Plantation
...How do you address the issue of people made uncomfortable by your choice? Does the perceived tactical advantage against the statistically unlikely need outweigh the everyday discomfort of those who don't support your choice?
The comfort level of the citizenry is irrelevant, except to you. It is the response by LE that is relevant to the OCer. The normalization of OC is squarely focused at LE, cuz Joe/Jane Six Pack ain't gunna do nothin to ya unless they decide to break da law to do something to ya cuz ya is OCin. Politicians are increasingly aware that banning guns is political suicide outside of liberal states...MS ain't one of those states. This fact is missed/dismissed by you either intentionally or unintentionally...I suspect intentionally. Cops are increasingly aware that busting OCers, where OC is legal is a liability issue and as such anti-2A cops are harder to find, or are anti-2A cops are not acting on their anti-2A-ness.

So, desiring to discuss the pros and cons of OC vs. CC is nothing but a vehicle to expend virtual ink to get a rise out of someone. This is what trolls do.

So, based on your posts, you are a troll, as correctly indicated by WalkingWolf.

I'm still not happy about all the signs popping up forbidding firearms in more and more places. I can't help seeing increased OC as a large part of the cause.
Well, if you CC exclusively, what do signs mean to you...like, who is going to know that you are packing heat...right?

Also, calling people stupid is not how you win allies and influence people.
 

JamesCanby

Activist Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Messages
1,480
Location
Alexandria, VA at www.NoVA-MDSelfDefense.com
It's still legal for someone to OC and have an alcoholic beverage as long as they are under the legal limit. It is illegal to CC and drink an alcoholic beverage - at all in VA.

Do you have a cite for that law or do you know the code number? Just curious.
The statute is:

§ 18.2-308.012. Prohibited conduct.

A. Any person permitted to carry a concealed handgun who is under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs while carrying such handgun in a public place is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. Conviction of any of the following offenses shall be prima facie evidence, subject to rebuttal, that the person is "under the influence" for purposes of this section: manslaughter in violation of § 18.2-36.1, maiming in violation of § 18.2-51.4, driving while intoxicated in violation of § 18.2-266, public intoxication in violation of § 18.2-388, or driving while intoxicated in violation of § 46.2-341.24. Upon such conviction that court shall revoke the person's permit for a concealed handgun and promptly notify the issuing circuit court. A person convicted of a violation of this subsection shall be ineligible to apply for a concealed handgun permit for a period of five years.

B. No person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 may consume an alcoholic beverage while on the premises. A person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of such a restaurant or club and consumes alcoholic beverages is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. However, nothing in this subsection shall apply to a federal, state, or local law-enforcement officer.​

Please note (in B) that consuming ANY alcoholic beverage while carrying concealed onto the premises of any restaurant or club is an illegal act -- no matter the Blood Alcohol Content level of the carrier -- and if convicted will result in a Class 2 misdemeanor. (Also interesting to note that a LEO may carry concealed and drink without penalty!)

Unless I missed a relevant statute, please also note that all of the alcohol "limit" restrictions seem to be contained in the statutes that reference concealed carry. There are no statutes that regulate open carry. Any non-prohibited person may openly carry into a restaurant or club and consume alcoholic beverages without regard to BAC limits, although this practice is highly discouraged by the OC community.
 

The Truth

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2014
Messages
1,971
Location
Henrico
The statute is:

§ 18.2-308.012. Prohibited conduct.

A. Any person permitted to carry a concealed handgun who is under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs while carrying such handgun in a public place is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. Conviction of any of the following offenses shall be prima facie evidence, subject to rebuttal, that the person is "under the influence" for purposes of this section: manslaughter in violation of § 18.2-36.1, maiming in violation of § 18.2-51.4, driving while intoxicated in violation of § 18.2-266, public intoxication in violation of § 18.2-388, or driving while intoxicated in violation of § 46.2-341.24. Upon such conviction that court shall revoke the person's permit for a concealed handgun and promptly notify the issuing circuit court. A person convicted of a violation of this subsection shall be ineligible to apply for a concealed handgun permit for a period of five years.

B. No person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 may consume an alcoholic beverage while on the premises. A person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of such a restaurant or club and consumes alcoholic beverages is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. However, nothing in this subsection shall apply to a federal, state, or local law-enforcement officer.​

Please note (in B) that consuming ANY alcoholic beverage while carrying concealed onto the premises of any restaurant or club is an illegal act -- no matter the Blood Alcohol Content level of the carrier -- and if convicted will result in a Class 2 misdemeanor. (Also interesting to note that a LEO may carry concealed and drink without penalty!)

Unless I missed a relevant statute, please also note that all of the alcohol "limit" restrictions seem to be contained in the statutes that reference concealed carry. There are no statutes that regulate open carry. Any non-prohibited person may openly carry into a restaurant or club and consume alcoholic beverages without regard to BAC limits, although this practice is highly discouraged by the OC community.
Thanks for that. I was pretty sure it was in 18.2-308 somewhere. I added the "stay below legal limit" part for safety. 18.2-308 is proving to be the most illogical arch nemesis for me...
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,200
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
Any non-prohibited person may openly carry into a restaurant or club and consume alcoholic beverages without regard to BAC limits, although this practice is highly discouraged by the OC community.
Indeed, although you wouldn't find such unanimity over the practice of openly carrying and consuming alcoholic beverages with regard to BAC levels ("limits" don't apply).
 

MKEgal

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
4,387
Location
in front of my computer, WI
since the newbie has already opened this necropost...

gripping hand said:
I'm not getting how people doing what they want to do equates with a visible firearm making someone else uncomfortable
Because apparently some people are uncomfortable seeing a LAC, and some people are uncomfortable seeing a gay couple, but the discomfort matters not one bit because both actions are legal.

GH said:
How long have you OC and what drove the decision? Is CC an option you rejected?
When I first became a LAC, our state did not allow cc.
Now that we do have cc (licensed, regulated, pay a tax, etc.) I still OC. It's comfortable, simple, helps education, helps preserve civil rights, faster to access in an emergency, and deters crime rather than requiring me to respond to one in progress (at which point probably both of us are getting hurt).
I also cc. (We do not have CC, thanks to our idiot governor who went back on his promise of supporting a CC bill... instead he insisted on one with a training mandate. I'd love it if our state became one of the ones honoring the Constitution!)

GH said:
What I'm looking for is an explanation of the point of OC other than "because I can"...
I would just like to have someone explain the tactical or political advantage
It's simpler.
It's more comfortable.
It's faster to access in an emergency.
It reminds people of their rights.
It preserves my rights.
It sparks conversations where people can be educated about rights & laws.
It prevents crime instead of making me look like a soft target. Therefore I don't get hurt & I don't have to hurt anyone. Much less stress, much less paperwork, no legal fees, no hearing damage.

I think all arguments boil down to one of 3 things:
It's my right
Education
Ease / simplicity

GH said:
Not everyone you meet is going to be comfortable with it ...
How do you address the issue of people made uncomfortable by your choice?
Other than myself, there's only 1 person whose mental comfort concerns me, and random strangers on the street are not that person.
I don't care if someone is not comfortable with me wearing pants, driving a car, being visibly armed, or discovering s/he is an idiot and far out of her/his league. As long as I'm not harming anyone, not breaking any laws, I'm going to go on being the person I am.

GH said:
I just don't understand why Marshaul seems to be the only one interested in helping me deal with an honest desire to understand OC.
Because you don't really want to understand, you want to argue.
If you wanted to understand, you'd read the fora, use the search function, instead of asking things which have been answered a thousand times over (on this site and others).

GH said:
I think open carry has more tactical disadvantages than advantages.
You're welcome to your opinion.
OC prevents crime, prevents me from getting hurt, by allowing criminals to make a fully informed decision about exactly how bad of an idea it would be to try to hurt me.
Concealed carry makes you look like a soft, easy target. It requires you to respond to a crime in progress, which is always slower than being on the offensive (which is what the criminal is doing). Of course, if you want to shoot someone, cc is a good way to get there.
OC is faster to access in an emergency. You may not have both hands available to get your clothes out of the way & grab the grip.

GH said:
No one on this site seems willing to take responsibility for the discomfort some people feel
Because it's not our responsibility.
If I feel disgusted by seeing a man & a woman holding hands, the responsibility for that feeling is all mine.

GH said:
Does this community address appropriate security holsters and belts? What about retention training?
Both are very good ideas, and yes, there have been threads addressing both issues.
The search function is your friend.

GH said:
How do you respond to the idea that the proliferation of "no firearms" signs is a result of more OC? And how do we fix it?
In WI, we saw a few places put up "keep out, evil gun owner" signs when our cc law went into effect.
Most businesses welcome all customers.
Many of the places which mistakenly put up signs simply did not understand the law. Our law says that a place which posts such a sign loses their immunity from liability, so when something goes wrong they can be sued. In fact, it can be argued that they created a dangerous situation by prohibiting self-defense, then not doing anything to protect customers.

GH said:
If these questions are too hard or embarrassing for you, just say so and I'll look for a less defensive forum where people are willing to share and discuss issues that affect all of us.
Having an attitude is hardly the way to win friends & influence people.
And since several people have answered the questions you've repeatedly asked, the conclusion I draw is that either you're not reading them, not understanding them, or refusing to accept the answers because they don't agree with your opinions.


Glocklover20 said:
she informed me that I was not allowed to carry my gun if I was not a cop
To which the answer is either "I believe you're misinformed", or "thank you for your opinion", and then walk away.

I finished the encounter by telling her if she didn't like it she could go voice her concerns to the manager
Bad idea. Don't challenge the mentally unstable people.

she chose rather to follow the guy with the gun, that she obviously had a prob with, all around the darn store with her husband while my girlfriend and I finished our shopping... She followed us after we checked out and we parted ways in the parking lot.
So she stalked & harassed you.
Call the local nonemergency cop number & report it. Give a description of you & her, what she's doing, etc. Point out that if she really were worried about you, she would not follow you, so you can't know what she might try to do to you or your girlfriend, and you're concerned for your safety & don't want to have to hurt her if she does something stupid.
 
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