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How many rounds are needed when carrying?

Firearms Iinstuctor

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I will have to dig for it, but there is a martial arts trainer, that teaches your chances of survival are better by rushing. He consistently disarms all his opponents whether they have a knife or a gun.
Doing so in class or training is a whole lot different then when the BGs have real bullets to shoot at you.
 

WalkingWolf

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Doing so in class or training is a whole lot different then when the BGs have real bullets to shoot at you.
Everything is a whole lot different in class or training! :banana:

But MA training is a hell of a lot more realistic than most firearms training. They are not pulling punches there, or shooting at paper targets that don't shoot back.

The moment there is any opportunity, or break, anybody with common sense will take advantage of it. Whether it is good guy or bad guy, within the most common shooting distances for LAC a shooter or stabber can easily be rushed while distracted.
 
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Firearms Iinstuctor

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I practice malfunction drills just a smart thing to do.


Most of the time I carry extra ammo some times not.

Well the BG give you time to clear, reload, run or do other things maybe maybe not.

The one thing about any self defense situation, and the only thing that one can count on is that each and every one is different.
 

Firearms Iinstuctor

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Everything is a whole lot different in class or training! :banana:

But MA training is a hell of a lot more realistic than most firearms training. There not pulling punches there, or shooting at paper targets that don't shoot back.
So they end up dead, bleeding, broken bones, in the hospital that is very hard on the trainees.

When one trains very hard there tends to be injuries. Management, insurance companies, students that get hurt and the people paying the bills tend not to like lots of injuries.

There is a fine line to realistic training and to many injuries.

It is easy to go over board both ways training that is so easy not realistic and training where people get injured not good one way or the other.
 

WalkingWolf

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I practice malfunction drills just a smart thing to do.


Most of the time I carry extra ammo some times not.

Well the BG give you time to clear, reload, run or do other things maybe maybe not.

The one thing about any self defense situation, and the only thing that one can count on is that each and every one is different.
Not really, all parties are trying to win, and will do anything to win. Almost every SD event involves attempting to survive.
 

WalkingWolf

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So they end up dead, bleeding, broken bones, in the hospital that is very hard on the trainees.

When one trains very hard there tends to be injuries. Management, insurance companies, students that get hurt and the people paying the bills tend not to like lots of injuries.

There is a fine line to realistic training and to many injuries.

It is easy to go over board both ways training that is so easy not realistic and training where people get injured not good one way or the other.
It's better than standing there trying to clear a gun while getting shot or stabbed.:lol:
 

mobiushky

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Everything is a whole lot different in class or training! :banana:

But MA training is a hell of a lot more realistic than most firearms training. They are not pulling punches there, or shooting at paper targets that don't shoot back.

The moment there is any opportunity, or break, anybody with common sense will take advantage of it. Whether it is good guy or bad guy, within the most common shooting distances for LAC a shooter or stabber can easily be rushed while distracted.
More like Some MA training is more realistic than Some firearms training. But likewise, some firearms training is more realistic than some MA training. The level of training you want depends more on your commitment and your pocket book. There are full blown live fire (with simunition) classes available in many states that run you through very realistic encounters and put shooters into way more intense situations than you can imagine. There are also fire on paper from a line and don't draw or move training. It's pretty similar with MA. All three of my kids did MA for a while. A lot of it is similar to fire on paper from a line training. But if you want to dedicate and get more, you can.

UPDATE: I can't link youtube right now, but do a search on "first person defender" on YT. A whole series that shows some of the first person scenario training and how it's done. It's about as real as you can get without blood actually escaping from perforations due to lead... (BTW, I'm not saying this is the only way or the best. Just presented as an example.)
 
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WalkingWolf

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Firearms training has to be safe for firearms, it is never realistic. It can only be as realistic as possible. Actual fighting can and is realistic, bruises are real, being thrown is real. You can't get legally shot with a firearm during firearms training. Training has become big business, most I have seen is worthless. Fights take place in the time it takes to click a pen. There are no rules, except one, win, all parties want the same thing.

I have been to enough funerals, and been in a few scrapes to tell you, IT IS NOT LIKE TRAINING. Over a dozen attempted stabbings, only cut three times, minor. Won every time because I fought, I rushed and won, period. Most fights happen within three strides, IMO it is silly some of the training for things like malfunctions. If your weapon jams, MOVE, use the gun for a club, but either attack or run. Survivors fight, they don't play by rules, and they don't clear jams. Training to clear jams, unless you are a soldier, will get you killed.

But hey, each to their own, before I became a cop my father taught me young, fight dirty, fight fast, and WIN.

This has made me remember a incident with my father when I was very very young. We had a dairy, and dad was filling in for a driver. He stopped to check the route schedule and was approached on the drivers side by a young man with a knife. No hesitation he hit the man with ice tongs, and drove away, all within a split second. Had he went for a gun instead of those tongs, he would have been cut. There certainly was no time for clearing.

About 40 years ago a ISP investigator was pulled on the side of the road writing a report. One of the local pot heads rushed the car, and in split second leaped in the window and gutted him. He didn't even touch his gun, certainly no time to clear a jam. 20 years ago a female FHP trooper stopped a vehicle that had just robbed a video store between Big Pine Key, and Marathon. The male and female suspect had a female hostage from the video store. Before the trooper could react she was attacked by both and dragged into the woods. The only thing that probably kept her alive as they tried to get her gun is she kept her hand on it shoving it back in the holster, with a broken arm. Pure survival, but no time to clear a jam.

That is not taking into account the many videos that are out there of real incidents both police and civilians. Seems to me the civilians without training usually fared better, they just fought to survive. No gun to even clear a jam, and they survived.

It takes luck, determination, and a will to do anything to take the attack to the attacker. Clearing a jam is not going to do it. I have never heard of, or seen any, except for military, surviving by clearing a jam.
 
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mobiushky

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Firearms training has to be safe for firearms, it is never realistic. It can only be as realistic as possible. Actual fighting can and is realistic, bruises are real, being thrown is real. You can't get legally shot with a firearm during firearms training. Training has become big business, most I have seen is worthless. Fights take place in the time it takes to click a pen. There are no rules, except one, win, all parties want the same thing.

I have been to enough funerals, and been in a few scrapes to tell you, IT IS NOT LIKE TRAINING. Over a dozen attempted stabbings, only cut three times, minor. Won every time because I fought, I rushed and won, period. Most fights happen within three strides, IMO it is silly some of the training for things like malfunctions. If your weapon jams, MOVE, use the gun for a club, but either attack or run. Survivors fight, they don't play by rules, and they don't clear jams. Training to clear jams, unless you are a soldier, will get you killed.

But hey, each to their own, before I became a cop my father taught me young, fight dirty, fight fast, and WIN.
See, you say one thing, then you contradict it a bit. MA training cannot be any more realistic than firearms training if the goal is to defend your life. Last I checked, it was just as illegal for an instructor to kill a student with MA as it is with a gun. Like I said, in MA they often pull punches because they know the real thing would break bones or cause serious injury. They will still hit, but not with the same force as a real life scenario. So in that sense, the students are in no more danger than in a live fire shoot house using sim-bullets that inflict pain on the person hit. And you can get shot in training. You just won't get shot with a real bullet. You'll get shot with sim-bullets that hurt like heck. Anyone who's ever played paintball knows what that feels like.

Of all the "realistic" MA training out there, the most likely to be realistic and useful is grappling because inevitably a street fight is going to devolve into grappling.
 

WalkingWolf

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See, you say one thing, then you contradict it a bit. MA training cannot be any more realistic than firearms training if the goal is to defend your life. Last I checked, it was just as illegal for an instructor to kill a student with MA as it is with a gun. Like I said, in MA they often pull punches because they know the real thing would break bones or cause serious injury. They will still hit, but not with the same force as a real life scenario. So in that sense, the students are in no more danger than in a live fire shoot house using sim-bullets that inflict pain on the person hit. And you can get shot in training. You just won't get shot with a real bullet. You'll get shot with sim-bullets that hurt like heck. Anyone who's ever played paintball knows what that feels like.

Of all the "realistic" MA training out there, the most likely to be realistic and useful is grappling because inevitably a street fight is going to devolve into grappling.
You can be punched and thrown in MA. Are YOU going to take training where you get shot?

And then on top of it, most of the firearms training for reaction to (drum roll) firearms. It is a industry, with over inflated egos like Runaway. Most of it is bullpoopoo. Sorry.
 
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mobiushky

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You can be punched and thrown in MA. Are YOU going to take training where you get shot?

And then on top of it, most of the firearms training for reaction to (drum roll) firearms. It is a industry, with over inflated egos like Runaway. Most of it is bullpoopoo. Sorry.
Yes.

Are you going to take MA training where the instructor says, "If you don't stop me I WILL break your neck and you will die. Here sign this waiver of liability..."?

There is training where you can be shot with real firearms that fire real bullets that happen to be made of plastic filled with paint. They use the same guns as you would use in the real world. The pain is real. You don't die, but then last I checked you don't die in MA training either. I understand your opinion of firearms training and I would agree some of the classes are totally useless, just like some Dojo's are. You made the claim that MA training is more realistic than firearms training. I simply disagreed with that saying that it's six of one half dozen of the other. There are realistic and unrealistic training options in both worlds.

I wouldn't say that firearms training is mostly for reaction to firearms. I can't recall any class I've been where the main theme was "here's how to deal with another firearm". It's more for attackers in general. Whether armed with a gun or knife or bat or car. Maybe a more accurate way to say it is, most firearms training is reaction WITH a firearm to threats. MA is reaction to threats without a firearm. Both are equally valid and useful. And honestly, it's worth anyone who wants to be prepared to take both. There are also training classes that combine the two.
 

WalkingWolf

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I have taken my bruises, and my falls, been choked to the point of passing out. The waiver was signing my paycheck every month.

Firearms training and MA training are not even close in terms of actual saving of lives. Sorry if that hurts some feelings but it is true. They can't even shoot at you in firearms training, though they used to in the military. Learning firearms retention, disabling a attacker, disarming a attacker are far more valuable than clearing a malfunction or shooting from behind a barrel or a set of tires, or fake wall.

Again most incidents do not involve barriers they are close, extremely close and fast. They are usually over in a couple shots, and not because of a malfunction. In the case of Jared loughner he was captured after a malfunction. In NYC a shooter was killed by police after a malfunction by the shooter. Incidents where there are malfunctions happen mostly by the bad guy. They do not become intimate with their firearm the same way LAC, and some police do. Usually most police if they have problems with a gun or guns, they get rid of them.

Thinking that within 10 feet that clearing a malfunction is going to save your life is IMO laughable. Again sorry if that hurts feelings.

I suggest getting to know your carry weapons very very well, and if they don't work or even a doubt get another.
 
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mobiushky

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I have taken my bruises, and my falls, been choked to the point of passing out. The waiver was signing my paycheck every month.

Firearms training and MA training are not even close in terms of actual saving of lives. Sorry if that hurts some feelings but it is true. They can't even shoot at you in firearms training, though they used to in the military. Learning firearms retention, disabling a attacker, disarming a attacker are far more valuable than clearing a malfunction or shooting from behind a barrel or a set of tires, or fake wall.

Again most incidents do not involve barriers they are close, extremely close and fast. They are usually over in a couple shots, and not because of a malfunction. In the case of Jared loughner he was captured after a malfunction. In NYC a shooter was killed by police after a malfunction by the shooter. Incidents where there are malfunctions happen mostly by the bad guy. They do not become intimate with their firearm the same way LAC, and some police do. Usually most police if they have problems with a gun or guns, they get rid of them.

Thinking that within 10 feet that clearing a malfunction is going to save your life is IMO laughable. Again sorry if that hurts feelings.

I suggest getting to know your carry weapons very very well, and if they don't work or even a doubt get another.
I'm not sure what else to tell you. You are saying that MA is more realistic because you can't be killed in firearms training. That makes no sense. You can't be killed in MA training either. You can be put into discomfort and a lot of pain. But they can't actually kill you so you know that you are essentially safe. Which makes it not 100% realistic. That same is true of firearms. You keep refusing to acknowledge that they can actually shoot at you. You can be put into discomfort and a lot of pain. It's all about what you want to learn and how far you will go. There is no corner on the market for realism in MA.

Which is better for a BG encounter is a different topic completely. If you want to discuss that, fine. But this was based on the assertion that MA is realistic and firearms isn't. Which isn't true.

My assertion is that a well prepared LAC should be trained in both if possible. Training solely in firearms and neglecting MA is not wise. Likewise, ignoring firearms training and only learning MA is not wise. Assuming you plan to carry that is. If you do, train both. If you can.
 

WalkingWolf

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Some of the firearms training that is out there is outright bad. People survive because of luck, and a will to live, and that is mostly what is behind most survivors.

Training to clear a semi auto IMO is very very bad. I noticed when I have talked to most trainers have never been in a scrape in their life. There are so many people trying to make a buck pushing training when they have no idea what really takes place.

Again you all are welcome to do what you want, I will do whatever it takes to survive. Even Yeager did what it took to survive, he ran, and became part of the dirt. That is what he should be teaching.
 

mobiushky

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Some of the firearms training that is out there is outright bad. People survive because of luck, and a will to live, and that is mostly what is behind most survivors.

Training to clear a semi auto IMO is very very bad. I noticed when I have talked to most trainers have never been in a scrape in their life. There are so many people trying to make a buck pushing training when they have no idea what really takes place.

Again you all are welcome to do what you want, I will do whatever it takes to survive. Even Yeager did what it took to survive, he ran, and became part of the dirt. That is what he should be teaching.
Some is, yes. I won't argue that.

Training to clear malfunctions is good. I completely and unequivocally disagree with you there. You may not ever need to do it. Hopefully you won't even get to that point. But to leave someone unequipped to do so is negligent. It forces them into a flight scenario with no other options. It's one thing to recommend flight if possible, it's harmful to leave people with no choice since flight may not be an option in all cases. I have yet to attend any training where the instructor said "While you try to clear this, be sure to stand right here in the middle of sight so you make a good target." In fact, quite the opposite. I've always been trained, if the gun malfunctions move to a safe spot first. Then if you need to, clear behind cover.

It's not about stand at fight at all costs. It's about, if you can, flee. If you can't, here's how to handle that. If you are stuck in a place that does not allow you to flee, you are essentially recommending that we don't teach proper gun manipulation so that a person could be left no option but surrender to the attacker. Granted, that's not likely, but it's possible.

If you use the MA analogy, that's like saying, I'm going to teach you to use all of your limbs except your right foot. If you ever need to use your right foot in a fight, you should just run away or give up instead.
 

WalkingWolf

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It IS about fight at all costs, and fiddling with a gun when it malfunctions will get somebody killed. Train to clear a malfunction and that is what you will do when you are being stabbed or beaten with a baseball bat. IMO it is stupid.

Shooting brings confidence, a proper operating firearm brings confidence. Confidence can be smelled by thugs, being left alone is more important than clearing a jam while being bludgeoned.

Expandable baton never jams. I train to use one, my wife trains to use one. It would most probably be the weapon we go to before even considering the firearm.
 
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Firearms Iinstuctor

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Force on force training with sims rounds and air soft is about the best one can hope for with fire arms training.

Yes sims and air soft tend to leave welts and bruises helps keep one honest.

Getting a few bangs and bruises in MA goes along with it.

Getting broken bones, tearing a rotator cuff, ending up in the hospital, collecting work comp or having to medically retire because of training is just foolishness and costly.

Learning firearms retention, disabling a attacker, disarming a attacker are just as valuable as clearing a malfunction or shooting from behind a barrel or a set of tires, or fake wall.

That is why one should train in them all not just one, because there is not one thing, that meet every situation and works all the time.

We can all come up with incidents where shooting, reloading, malfunction clearing ,having a BUG , Tasers, spray, baton or hand to hand did or didn't work.

It is always good to train as much and as best that one can physically or financially.

If that is what you decide and want to do with your time ,money and body
 
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mobiushky

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It IS about fight at all costs, and fiddling with a gun when it malfunctions will get somebody killed. Train to clear a malfunction and that is what you will do when you are being stabbed or beaten with a baseball bat. IMO it is stupid.

Shooting brings confidence, a proper operating firearm brings confidence. Confidence can be smelled by thugs, being left alone is more important than clearing a jam while being bludgeoned.

Expandable baton never jams. I train to use one, my wife trains to use one. It would most probably be the weapon we go to before even considering the firearm.
And being stuck in a situation where you are out of options up against a better opponent in hand to hand will also get you killed. In one thought you talk about how short encounters are and then you talk about how to instill your confidence in the attacker? Encounters happen as you say in blindingly short amounts of time. So there is no instilling anything into the attacker. He either sees the guy or he doesn't. If you choose to shoot, then everyone panics including the attacker. He's not thinking anymore about how confidently you pulled that trigger than you are. If he's motivated enough to continue the attack in the face of a loaded weapon, he's not going to stop because you pulled a baton.

The issue here is that you keep making these observations based on the idea that this is the only way for it to play out. And that any one who suggests otherwise isn't smart. That's bologna. You're scenarios are valid, no mistake. So are others. You play the odds that you will never be in a situation where you are limited to a jammed firearm with no other options. And odds are pretty good in that favor. But to ignore them completely and then imply that to address them is very very bad seems contrary to prepared self defense. I agree that the best plan is to be able to handle the lightning fast encounter as best you can with whatever you can. But if you cannot flee the scene for whatever reason, it's beneficial to know how to clear the jam quickly. To say otherwise is fool hearty.
 
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